Ask an ebike technical question get an answer within 30 minutes or so.

[Pizzabroodje]

I think the next step for me is to mount the kit on another bike, so I know if it's the motor or something else like a crack in the frame.

Am I right with my assumption that it can't be the nylon gear or rotor as it also happens with the motor off and just pedaling?

[stts]

Hah, yea, I got some funny spelling. As for the chain, yup, easier to change a chain to test than to tear into the motor. I got me a tube of Muk Off wet chain lube for my bike. It reviews as at the top of the list of effective chain lubes.

[pbreezy]

Also make sure the retaining plate is facing the right way; the protrusions should be digging into the frame not facing outwards… just thinking out loud here.

[Pizzabroodje]

I made sure to get the inner lock ring as tight as I could when fixing it again after it came loose. The retaining plate is also facing with the notches inwards as it should.

[pbreezy]

Hmm.. did you loosen the retaining plate fixing bolts when you retorqued the lock rings? I remember my instructions saying not to tighten those 5mm Allen bolts until the lock rings were tight.

[Pizzabroodje]

Good point. I did it the other way around so the 5mm bolts first (wasn't sure what's the recommended procedure here). I do doubt that this is causing it though, as I did it this way the first time and that worked fine for a good while. The lockring is as tight as I can get it. I'll make sure to do it in this order next time though.

I think I'll put on another chain tomorrow, perhaps with another rear wheel too, just to completely rule that out. If that doesn't solve it I'll put the motor on another bike (have one ready for a kit to be put on) to find out if it's the bike or the motor.

[pbreezy]

Maybe loosen those Allen bolts and see if you get any more rotation on the inner lock ring. If the retaining plate is tight you’re fighting against the plate, but when it’s loose you’re torquing into the bottom bracket, just with the plate loosely sandwiched in between. I’m just really thinking that movement of the motor is your noise…

[Pizzabroodje]

Okay I'll check just to be sure, but I don't think it's the cause. Might have started it all though.
When I removed it to fixate the motor again I did see that the teeth on the retaining plate pushed into the frame. Maybe that it chewed away too much here causing it to move and make a cracking noise when it does?

[Pizzabroodje]

The lockrings got pretty loose again, tightened it all again (tightening the retaining plate after tightening the lockrings this time) but the noise still exists.

When I rotate the crank spindle it does sound a bit dry:
https://youtube.com/shorts/m7lWhdcbd6c Which of the bearings would be the culprit of this?

I highly doubt that it's the chain or in the back of the drivetrain. Either something in the motor or the frame.

I'll move it over to the other bike tomorrow, got a bit too late today.

[stts]

Oh that is just terrible bearing performance. There are several bearings in there. And something inside there was making the rounds and assaulting your freewheel. So there is debris out of place inside there. Maybe less now, if you cleaned out the grease, but the damage is done. There are bearings to be purchased on Ebay and Aliexpress. I would plan on replacing them all. There are numbers on the bearings to get them at bearing suppliers, but these will be harder to stock metric. May be quicker just to get Ebay versions. But bearing houses that supply industry will be more expensive, but the better quality bearings. Its just up to you. These motors are not industry machines, but they do wear out bearings, as you can hear in your video. Your chain is also on its last legs, since if has about outgrown your chain gage. Get a new one and a tube of Muk Off. They make dry and wet. Dry has to be reapplied every few hours, as it flakes off taking dirt with it. The wet version is wet and sticky like all the other wet lubes. But lasts for a hundred miles or more. But it sticks to dirt like all the other wet greases. So it's your preference, but they perform fantastic from a protection point of view. Your preference wet or dry.

The lock ring is more complicated. Thread lock blue will hold the nut. But the torque arm part has wallowed out its grip. It's bound to get loose again. So You will probably need to fab up a better lock ring with better grip. There are better torque arms out there to be purchased. You will have to study where yours is not working, and look at others that don;t lock down in the spots your arm is using. I plan on making a torque arm that does allow spring return movement. So it functions as a flex motor mount. Then I wont have the shock loads on chain and paws and sprockets like whats going on now. That is a summer project.

[MuddyJacob]

Hello. I'm having trouble with my torque sensor.

I have felt that the bike takes much more effort to get the assist to engage. I tried my friends new Ebike, also a Luna made bike and it was much easier. I'm not sure what happened but it's takes much more pedal pressure to get the assist to engage than when I first bought it. I'm wondering if there is a part I need to clean, replace or if I can change the programming if I buy a programming USB cord. Any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

The motor is a custom Mag Ultra. Customized by Luna, the maker of the bike. Bike is a Luna Apollo.

[stts]

There should be nothing to clean. Torque sensors are fragile and glued into place to monitor metal flexing. If a crappy glue job didnt break free, then there would be programmed settings that calibrate the sensors. So all you can do is hunt down the parameter setting on your friends bike and see if they are different from yours. Since you don't have a cable, then the display parameters are the only thing you could have accidently messed up.

But the website says "New Custom Torque sensor that has been professionally tuned by Luna for the most efficient power output available". So it would seem that the sensor is likely only reset by cable. And it's possible the settings are battery backed up in the controller, where the battery is low or has corroded connection. So using a cable to read the settings in your friends bike may be the most economical fix idea. But a novice with a programming cable could be bad news to another persons bike. So you may be stuck sending your bike back to Luna to be "professionally tuned". Torque sensors are NOT the average accessory add on.

[Pizzabroodje]

Mounted the BBSHD to the other bike; didn't make the noise anymore. I must say that the battery on this bike can only deliver 18 Amps (at 48v), but should be enough to produce the cracking, as it already happened when just pedaling on the other bike. (Still have to place the clutch again, so couldn't check if it still did)

My hypothesis is that because the lockrings weren't tight enough and/or got tightened after the retaining plate was, the retaining plate chewed away too much off of the frame, causing the plate's teeth to slip under load.

See the image of the BB shell below.

Now the question would be how to remedy this. I'm thinking either mill a bit away from the frame, make a new retaining plate with the teeth in a different position, or make a plate for in between the retaining plate and frame. I'll ask my brother for his opinion when he's here for the weekend, he has a degree and works in the metal industry.

[pbreezy]

You can “face” the bottom bracket and it should clean that up. A bike shop could do it or you could get a facing set, which might be prohibitively expensive if you’re just going to use it one time.

[Pizzabroodje]

Yeah facing it is what I meant by milling. My dad works in a bike shop, he probably has it there. But my brother works in a metal workshop so he probably has better tools/machines for the job there.

Would the BB shell becoming less wide (it's a 68mm BB) be an issue?

[Pizzabroodje]

Adding to the last post above:

I guess I could just use a spacer like this to accommodate for the milled away bit of the frame?

Are these spacers required anyways when mounting a BBSHD to a 68mm frame? I didn't have them on before.

[Pizzabroodje]

It was the right-hand side ball retainer in the IGH. Replaced it and the noise is gone now.

I think the bearings inside the motor or at least one of them is a bit dry yeah. I still have to put the clutch back; I'll take a look at the thrust bearing when I do.

What other bearing could it be besides the thrust bearing? I'm guessing the axle bearing and needle bearing could also be the culprit here?

[stts]

Its hard to say which bearing specifically. The thrust bearings are open and subject to whatever contamination messes up the internal grease. The shaft bearings are sealed so they could dry out on their own despite gearbox lube condition. You just have to pull the shaft out and check all the bearings for smooth rotation. It aint hard to do. But if they were to eventually sieze up, they could spin and gall out the aluminum creating more damage that would need attention. If none of those seem rough, then you would have to explore the bearings on the gears that spin. Maybe even the sprage clutch in the plastic gear. Its following the chain of motion till you find the noise maker. If the noise from finger rotation happens when the freewheel is removed, then its a sure thing that the culprit is a crank shaft bearing.

[Pizzabroodje]

I think it might just have been because there was no clutch. (Something rubbing?) Only noticed it after I took it out, with it in again I didn't notice it. Spinning the axle inside the big gear made the same sound (without clutch still, I didn't think about checking this after I put the clutch back); so if it's not because there was no clutch, it's the smaller sealed bearing on the big gear, didn't seem too bad rotating it by hand though. All other bearings are smooth. The outer rings of both bearings that are visible from outside the motor are a little bit rusty, should be waterproof though, right? I cleaned them up a little and put a thin as possible layer of bearing grease on there to prevent further rusting.

Another thing that started happening a while back is that the pedals will continue to rotate and thus activate PAS if the cranks aren't held back. Noticed it not too long after putting in a new stator with rotor, clutch and new grease.
I saw a post where people said it's the clutch; what do you think of this? Is there anything else that could cause this? (Maybe that bearing?)

[bte123.be@gmail.com]

I have a question I have a bmx bike and new to this but was wondering can I make my front wheel electric with front wheel kit. And make my back wheel gas powered so that I can switch options when needed. Like only use electric when trying to keep quiet as much as I can and only using gas for long distance.. is that possible? It's something I really want to put together . I know I'll have to hold the clutch while riding electric to free the gas wheel.. but is it do able,? Like have the electric handle throttle on left and gas handle on right. I know having electric handle left I'll have to turn it the opposite way since I'm sure they only make them for the right handle. But never put anything had or electric together so I'm here asking you all that have done it. Sorry if it stupid question I just think having both options would benefit my life style

[stts]

Yup, using a gas motor can even charge the battery.

[pbreezy]

I think the biggest issue you have is real estate. A BMX has almost none. You would need room for a gas tank and a battery and an engine and a hub motor controller, as well as two throttles, a display, and at least a kill switch in addition to the brake levers.
If you’re not dead set on your exact plan, you could probably do pretty well finding a decent gas powered bike and adding a mid drive, and just use pedal assist with the electric motor. I think it would clean up a lot of the clutter I imagine this bike to have…

[73Eldo]

He also posted this in its own thread which is a more appropriate location for this sort of question.

[Floid]

I broke a spoke on the rear wheel of an X2 with the standard 27.5" Alex MD35 rims. I measured the spoke as 13G 262mm and the nipple as 14G diameter and 16mm long. I can't find these anywhere. Do you sell replacements or can you give a hint where to buy replacements?

I found/purchased 13G 262mm Sapim spokes, but they don't fit your nipples (must be different threading). Their nipples don't fit the smaller 14G rim holes.

Thanks!

[paxtana]

Yes, just email support@lunacycle.com your order# and we will try to hook you up as a special order.

[JeffMcVey]

I bought a luna shark park back in 2015 and was wondering what the specs of the bms are. It's the 52v Panasonic PF 11.5ah High Power version. I was wondering what the continuous amp output is. Thanks

[paxtana]

Likely 30A continuous / 50A peak.

[Pizzabroodje]

The chain started skipping again after putting it back (most likely either because of a different orientation or the quick-link).

I'll try to fix it but will replace the whole drivetrain.
I want to go all wide; I already chose a chain and sprocket (Wippermann 1E8 and KMC e-bike sprocket), but am still looking for a good chainring.

All BBSHD chainrings are either narrow or narrow-wide, so I'll need one of those adapters (a local webshop is selling the generic black 130BCD version for €25 including shipment, together with a 42t narrow-wide chainring).

I'd love to get a 52t but am already tight on frame clearance with the stock 46t. I might be able to pull off 48 or 50, though I still have to measure.

Now, say I'd use a 48t chainring (which I think should be able to fit because it'll be out more by a smidge with the chainring adapter), the highest I could go in the back while reaching about ~35mph at 160rpm in second gear of the Nexus 3, is 17t. If I used the third gear on the Nexus though and 22t in the back, I could go ~36mph at 160rpm.

In both scenarios I'd use the first gear at take-off.

Which of these two scenarios would you say is better? 2nd gear 17t or 3rd gear 22t?

[Pizzabroodje]

I'm running on a 52V battery, but only charge it to 80-90%.
I calculated it all with 160rpm, but that'll have the room to go down a bit, I guess it would just end up going a little slower.

[AZguy]

Not such a bad thing that rpm and top speed go down with the battery running down - sort of a feature =]

Top speed on a motor like these is generally roughly proportional to the battery voltage... so with a 52V the max is 58.8V - let's say loaded it's 57 for round numbers - and flat around 42V... speed at flat will only be 42V / 57V =~ 74% of full speed... point being is that the max speed can change significantly depending on the battery state-of-charge (SOC)..

[Pizzabroodje]

Yes, I'm aware of that.

[Retrorockit]

When a chain wears the pitch length gets longer. This put s all the load on one tooth of the cog so it wears too. The rear one wears pretty quickly, the front with more teeth takes longer. A new chain can skip on a worn cog. Since you only have one rear cog, maybe replace that cog with each chain. I use a park CC2 chain checker that measures the actual stretch. Wippermann comes in new at. 0mm stretch, KMC can be .50mm new On the fornt a new chain should lay down all the way around the cog and not bunch up form wearing smaller. Turning the chain around doesn't fix the wear. Tunng the chain ring around can help.
The counterbore means the head of the bolts are recessed into the gear Non C/B gears have the head of the bolt sitting on top. One can sit closer to the motor on the adapter, the other can be turned around.
The torque of the motor is smooth all the way around. Standing on the cranks and pulling up on the handlebars is probably harder on the hub. The 22t cog will send more torque to the rear than the 16 due to the ratio. Simano recommends 2:1 which would be 46t:23T IGH is more expensive. I find Sunrace 11-40t cassettes for $25 and throw them away with the worn chain. A shift interrupt switch to protect the hub between gears will probably help a lot. The 3 speed Sturmey Archer is considered strong enough for the BBSHD. The Nexus 3 I haven't heard too much about.
You might use 2nd gear to accelerate to speed then pedal in 3rd gear.
Wrap on a 16t is plenty. I spend a lot of time at full power 13t and 15t, and 12t and 11t work OK too, just not so often. But being alone it will probably wear a lot.

[AZguy]

FWIW I have a second electric bike with >2500mi and have literally never touched the derailleur after initially replacing the cassette after only a couple hundred miles

[Retrorockit]

The counterbored holes let you put washers between the adapter and the cog to move it closer to the motor. Without it the bolts hit first.I have 2-3/8" washers behind mine. 3/8" is a closer fit on 10mm bolts than 10mm washers.
1st gear, and 3rd gear in 3 speed hubs use the same gear set.Reduction in 1st, and overdrive in 3rd. So it's actually the same parts. It's a single planetary gear train.The resistance to movement will be higher, but the force applied should be the same.The clutches will be the difference.The torque on the output side will be higher in 1st. This would be the axle twisting in the dropout.
The problem with counting bicycle pawls is the gear they run inside doesn't usually have an even multiple of teeth. So the wear gets spread out because only one pawl at a time is engaged. For example 4 pawls running in 23 teeth. Only one at a time will be engaged. It will have many engagement points, but
usually just one pawl at a time working. IDK the specifics of each IGH but that's considered normal in bicycle hubs.
I posted a thread on this suggesting the use of sprag clutches instead of pawls, where all the sprags engage at once, and infinite engagement point. All I heard was CHEAP,CHEAP,.CHEAP.If cheap is what you want cheap is what you get.

[Retrorockit]

I looked into the spec. sheet of the Nexus 3. Shimano says it has a Shift Power Protector.I can'r find any info on this related to the IGH itself. But for the Nexus roller brake it's a clutch that slips to limit brake power inside the roller brake. They also have a brake Power Protector that goes in the brake cable.
So maybe there is a protection against overload in there already?
If you multiply 1st gear ratio times 3rd gear ratio you will get 1. That's because it's the same gears working backwards. Hope this helps.

[ambishop22]

Hello...I'm about to pull the trigger on a Sur Ron, but after riding a friend's on my trails, I know I need to do something to improve torque / low speed hill climbs. Is a larger sprocket the best first step? If so, how should I choose which size? I'm thinking the 64T since I don't care much about top speed. Also, what chain length do I need (the extension is sold out on Luna)?

[paxtana]

Yes the larger sprocket is your best option for optimizing towards torque over top speed. Sure you could go 64.
Should be able to just get that same 420 oring chain, a moto chain breaker tool, and master link (there's even half links if you need) then just use the tool to take out as many links as needed until it is sized correctly.

[latecurtis]

My question is about the specifications as when I looked at them yesterday it just don't make any sense at all. ?????????????

The 36V - 1,000W motor I own runs like a 36V 800W motor. I owned both. I do not see 35.6 amps. It could be that the motor I bought is not the same as was about two years ago. I owned the 48V 1,000W version and at 750W with a 36V controller it ran circles around the 36V - 1,000W motor I got now. They are all Unite motors though ????????????????????

I bought the 1,800W brushless motor about two years ago and did hit 32.5 mph at 50V. I have 56V now and am about to see if I can hit 35 mph as have 35 mph gearing. It is only rated at 26 amps though ?????? 48V * 26 amps = 1,248W. NOT 1,800. The 36V brush is 35.6 * 36 = 1,281W. I own both motors and the brushless motor tops out at 32.5 mph at 50V LTO. The 36V brush motor I have 28 mph.

However it has been over 2 years since I bought them. I also have a 60V - 3,000W brushless motor but looking on e bay and Amazon I don't see it. I only see a 2,500W 60V and a 3,000W 72V. My motor no longer exists and the prices on all have increased.

I am wondering if the 48V - 2 kilowatt motor , the 60V - 2,500W motor and the 72V - 3 kilowatt motor are the same motor. They are all silver Unite motors. I am also wondering if my 1,800W brushless motor could be the same also. The 60V - 2,000W motor is rated at 4,300 rpm and my 1,800W motor 3,000 rpm though so maybe not. At 60V my 1,800W motor would be 2,250W as 1,800 / 4 = 450 and 48 / 4 = 12 so for every 12V you get 450W so at 72V my 1,800W motor is 2,700W.

My 60V 3,000W motor says 4,800 rpm which is a lot different than 4,900 rpm at 72V. That will be a big issue when gearing. I can no longer find a 60V - 3,000W motor. That is why I need to know what my motor is so I order the correct sprocket. Looking at no more than 46 mph at 3 kilowatts but if it is only 2,500W and 4,300 rpm then it will not be geared right. Does that make sense. I use the sprocket calculator from electric scooter parts for all my builds.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115668725361?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110 01%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D201608111141 45%26meid%3Df5eb00dd310c473491914960eab0db9e%26pid %3D100667%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D285123557657%2 6itm%3D115668725361%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D235 1460%26brand%3DUnbranded%2FGeneric&_trksid=p235146 0.c100667.m2042

Please let me know.

Thanks.

LC. out.

[Cezar]

I don't quite understand how a 36V battery can be the size of a 52V battery. Maybe I don't understand something.
I build an e-bike, import engines and buy batteries made "according to the art" from cells of well-known manufacturers - eg LG MJ1 or Sanyo - most of them with a voltage of 3.7V and a capacity of 3500 mAh. I put the battery housings on the slanted tube of the frame in the "place" of the water bottle, although much larger - we use screws and add two more - fixing rivet nuts. The housings are the same for 48V and 52V, 36 I have never installed. A 48V battery has 65 cells and a 52V battery has 70 cells. Just because they fit in the same case doesn't mean they're the same size. A 36V battery is 10x5 = 50 cells. For large batteries 21Ah 36V with 6 sets in parallel we have 60 cells.
Motors allowed in Europe have a maximum of 250W, I install up to 1.5 kW. It is known that for a voltage of 36V, the maximum amperage is about 7-10A, for me it is 28-30A. for 48V - up to 52V. So we try to compare incomparable things.

[stts]

Well, your just looking at the wrong thing here. There is no question that Ohms laws says that it's easy to build the same size battery at 36v as is 52v. The problem you see comes up when you hit the throttle hard or from the standing start when max current is demanded. That sag in voltage happens because of battery resistance. So when you sag down to 25v, the controller will be demanding 38amps to launch the bike as commanded. But the mosfets will not be sized to carry that much current. So safety circuits kick in to current limit, or controllers simply blow up. Either way, you don't get the power that you commanded. If you do have a better 36v controller that will supply that current, then the power has to go thru the battery wires and the controller wires that are not big enough to handle this current effortlessly. So wire resistance causes even more resistance to the transmission of the power to the motor. Additionally, the windings in the motor use wire that is of smaller gauge to cut the costs of building the motors. And that's even more resistance that interferes with power delivery to get hard acceleration. So the problem is not the voltage as much as it's the push to make cheaper components and build quality. Companies are not interested in putting larger gauge windings in motors when they can crank up the voltage instead. The battery does not get bigger or smaller, it is simply rearranged. You still get the same miles traveled because it's still a 1Kwatt battery. But they can sell you cheaper made motors and wiring and controllers. In Europe, all power in the walls is 220v. That means all the wiring in the walls is half the size and expense that it is in America. All the gizmos use smaller size motors and controllers that still deliver the same size power. All the breaker boxes are smaller and cheaper, as is all the connector materials in the entire system. But it still does the same work for them as our power does for us. They could switch to 440v power if they choose, but its just too dangerous when they get their finger on it. Oh, another big reason for 110v in American is that our houses are made of wood that burns down in electrical fires. European homes are mostly made of stone. They don't catch fire when their 220v arcs and sparks.

So you see, 36v is just more expensive to setup the way people want it than 52v. And eventually, the voltage will be 97v to make motors and controllers even cheaper and more profitable to make. And batteries will get physically smaller when they make the next improvement in the actual battery chemistry. So until then, batteries will be about the same size no matter what voltage you pick. A 97v battery will not be any smaller with the current cells we have. But no bigger either.

[Retrorockit]

The "size" of a battery is expressed as Watt/hours,W/h. Basically you add up the Watt hours of all the cells in the battery and that is the "size" of the battery. The cells can be wired up in several different Voltages. usually multiples of 4V since that represents a charged 3.7V. cell.
At lower Voltages you need more Amps to produce the same power. This requires bigger wires. I asked a bus engineer why they used 24V. in bus electrical systems when cars and trucks used 12V. He said it saves 300# of copper wire per bus. You get more power at the same amps with higher Voltage, and no loss in W/h as long as the battery has enough cells.So it's more versatile as long as the components can handle the Voltage, and cooling for the extra power is there. 48-52V is preferred because it can run on standard 60V electrical components. 56V and up requires more expensive parts. 36V came out of lead acid batteries where 12V. multiple is common. Going form 36 to 48V. there adds size and weight with lead acid batteries. The built up cell type batteries don't have that issue. But a lot of controllers came from the lead acid era so 12V multiples are easier to build. So 48V is standard now. It may be hard to find a display with native support for 52V. etc. But 52V is fairly common.

[Scoonie]

When will batteries be available?

[paxtana]

Not sure, seems like operations has opted for not making them available separately. But if you have bought a kit from us please email support@lunacycle.com with the order# and we can sell wolf for you via special order ;)

[flei]

Received a new Luna X2 yesterday and though the battery came out as it is supposed to, when I re-insert it I cannot get it to lock into place. It appears the bolt on the lock does not align with the receiver on the battery case. I cannot see any obvious interference etc. in the compartment and the battery seems to seat properly. Anyone seen this issue and/or know a fix? Thanks.