Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

X2 and Z1 - who’s in?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    X2 and Z1 - who’s in?

    II’d been looking at a DIY M600 or UART Ultra build, but with the state of parts - cost and shipping times for frames and other bits, I was approaching a $5K build fairly easily.
    I swear I recall someone at Luna hinting at a Black Friday ‘surprise’ so refreshed a few times in the past few days and saw the X2 and Z1.
    Not quite how I’d have specced it but frame, Yari fork, and battery all good, and hoping the programmable M600 is real/solid vs the shunt of the X1.

    Ordered an X2. At 6’, and after much grief, still went with the M frame. I’ve got a shorter inseam for my height, and wouldn’t mind my wife occasionally riding it as I try to get her into something FS down the line…

    Went with the X2 over the Z1 based on claimed weights of 58 vs 65# and in reality I don’t need the Ultra power but do want the programmability.
    -----------------

    Adding in rolling Qs and other bits so people interested can see it.
    Note - for the X2/M600 controller, this is effectively a variant of a controller Marcos and others released back in 2017 and is VESC-based, and is a modification of the BBHSDH v2 controller released in ~March 2021. IMO - the controller has a lot of potential and Marcos has real experience here.
    LudiV2 KB/doc is here: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...-documentation

    1. Is there an input for a gear sensor, or for brake cutoff switches?
    A: I’m assuming the controller is the same as or based on the BBHSD LudiV2 and seems from Marcus’ comments in the big v2 thread, there’s support, although not confirmed with Luna nor if the brakes have cutoffs.
    Luna response: Seems to be no way to add a gear or brake sensor to the X2/M600.
    2. Much is made RE: the controller being 72v capable, but the bike as is will ship with 48v?
    Luna Response: 48v for now. Doubt there will be a 52V battery though. X2 display is OK to go to 72v though.
    3. What are the details on the shipping batteries BMS?
    4. Scanning github, I can see some of Marcos’ PRs, but it seems most of his commits are to a private project (1 or more; cant tell) - is the controller firmware part of, will become part of vesc-tools mainline or?
    A: Still poking around a bit but at least part of the code is here: https://github.com/vedderb/bldc
    5. Doing some reading on the BBHSD Ludi thread - should we assume the v2 Eggrider will be supported in a future update?
    Luna and Marco response: No go for x2/M600 and Eggrider as it's not CANBUS based.
    Assumed - should work for Z1 however..
    6. Are the tires coming tubed or tubeless?
    Luna Response: tubed
    7. What hubs are used in the wheels?
    Luna response: Quanta hubs, proprietary for this bike only.
    8. What is the crank arm length shipping with the bike?
    A: Not confirmed - 160mm or 170mm??
    9. Which chainring will ship on the bikes?
    A: X2 pics look to be 38T. Not confirmed w/Luna.
    Luna Response: 38T (X1)
    10. Which variant of Guide brakes? T, RE, etc. ?
    Luna response: Same as X1.
    Added: Seems like Guide R - has tool-less lever adjust.
    Last edited by rtp; 11-30-2021, 11:51 PM. Reason: added brakes info, link to ludiv2 oc/kb

    #2
    Did they only carry 1 medium or something?? How can it be out of stock already? Ridiculous. I didn't even get the email notification even though I was supposedly added manually.

    Also at $4200 ($550 mark up), the silent gear isn't being given for free, it's more like a forced purchase. Not everyone wants the silent gear. It shreds into a million pieces on semi-hard riding with the Ludicrous option. I would still buy one of these bikes but where the hell is the medium? I was up at 8 AM PST looking at my options and there were no medium sized bikes. There is no way that the east coast bought them all up that fast even if there were only 5 bikes in that size.
    Last edited by Whambo; 11-26-2021, 09:44 AM.

    Comment


      #3
      Not a clue - from the ad it looks like they may have opened it up at midnight PST? There are still medium Z1s if the site is correct.
      Looks like they mostly re-used the X1 web text with some changes - I’ve probably got more Qs, and yeah, after digging into E10 frame builds and comments from those with bikes already, it probably would have made sense to have 50% M frames, 20% small and 30% L and XL but who knows… ?

      I’m mostly hoping the controller doesn’t suck and is as outlined - and will be de-tuning it off of max power based on experiences of X1 owners to date..

      Comment


        #4
        Some questions as I didn’t see them covered on the site:
        1. Still used BCD104 chainrings? Whch one ships? 34T like the X1? Largest expected to fit same as X1?
        2. Does the display show actual watts/power or it’s half like the X1?
        3. Which display ships and which are compatible?

        Comment


        • marcos
          marcos commented
          Editing a comment
          For the M600 Ludi v2:

          2. The display doesn't show half the power/current anymore
          3. Comes with the DPC240, I haven't checked for compatibility with other CANbus displays.

          IMO the display is just for turning the bike on/off and selecting the assist level. For more info a phone attached to the handlebar gets the info presented much more nicely.

        #5
        Just wanted to say that the X2 and Z1 both have medium sized frames listed! I bought the X2 with Ludicrous. $5080 with tax and shipping. So stoked!

        Comment


          #6
          Originally posted by rtp View Post
          Some questions as I didn’t see them covered on the site:
          1. Still used BCD104 chainrings? Whch one ships? 34T like the X1? Largest expected to fit same as X1?
          2. Does the display show actual watts/power or it’s half like the X1?
          3. Which display ships and which are compatible?
          Great questions.

          EDIT:

          The Z1 ships with the color display
          • DPC-18 Color Display with USB port
          The X2 ships with the standard display (non-color) based on the pictures
          Last edited by Whambo; 11-26-2021, 11:36 AM.

          Comment


            #7
            I am wanting to buy one, but on the fence about which one to get (X2 vs. Z2). Since they are the same price doesn't it make sense to go with the larger, more improved motor? Even if I do not need it, it seems like that would make more sense. Other than the added weight, are there any other considerations I should think of?

            Also, a bit disappointed like Whambo, that they did not reach out to me like they said they would. Luckily, I randomly checked the website today.

            Comment


            • paxtana
              paxtana commented
              Editing a comment
              Sorry friend these were added late night on thanksgiving, by the time my team got in for work most of the bikes had already been bought up so we were unable to to send notifications.

            #8
            Originally posted by Cody Jones View Post
            I am wanting to buy one, but on the fence about which one to get (X2 vs. Z2). Since they are the same price doesn't it make sense to go with the larger, more improved motor? Even if I do not need it, it seems like that would make more sense. Other than the added weight, are there any other considerations I should think of?

            Also, a bit disappointed like Whambo, that they did not reach out to me like they said they would. Luckily, I randomly checked the website today.
            Unless you plan to primarily commute with this bike, I think the X2 is an overall better package. You get the better rear shock, lighter motor that's still very capable, and better frame geometry for trail riding. That was my thought process for picking the X2 over the Z1. I'm not a fan of the plastic gear but Luna is saying it's stronger/larger than the previous version so it should be up to the beating.

            Comment


            • Cody Jones
              Cody Jones commented
              Editing a comment
              Thank you Whambo. I was set to buy the Z1 and now I am thinking of going the other route. Any insight to what size you would recommend for a male 5'11" with a 32 inch inseam? I mountain bike, but am not extreme and also cruise around town quite a bit on my current ebike.

            #9
            Originally posted by Whambo View Post

            Great questions.

            EDIT:

            The Z1 ships with the color display
            • DPC-18 Color Display with USB port
            The X2 ships with the standard display (non-color) based on the pictures
            Thanks - as you can imagine I was flipping between the two of them a bit, but as my alternate had progressed enough down the line to parts lists for an M600 build, I went with the X2. :)
            Still wondering which controllers if any are compatible, although I'd good with the more stealthy controller on the bike, including positioning - replaced the DPC18 on my BBHSDH bike with an egg rider, so should be fine for me.

            Comment


              #10
              Originally posted by Cody Jones View Post
              I am wanting to buy one, but on the fence about which one to get (X2 vs. Z2). Since they are the same price doesn't it make sense to go with the larger, more improved motor? Even if I do not need it, it seems like that would make more sense. Other than the added weight, are there any other considerations I should think of?

              Also, a bit disappointed like Whambo, that they did not reach out to me like they said they would. Luckily, I randomly checked the website today.
              Also got no notification.. am guessing it's manual at this point for whatever reason.

              You're going to get multiple opinions on the two motors, IMO. If the published weights are accurate, and I see no reason for them not to be, the Z1 is ~7-8lbs heavier than the X2. This isn't a really big deal IMO on ebikes - the WW Hydra is ~60# (could well be 65#, same as published for the Z1), while I'm afraid to even weigh my pig-of-a-bike current BBHSD...it's not light. I think the Biktrix new CF frames bike is also a bit over 60#, so there's all reasonably close and honestly, there aren't all that many options for lightening (CF wheels are $$$ but not hugely lighter from what I've seen).

              The way I look at it, right or wrong, is I'm rarely out of PAS 2-3 of 9 on my BBSHD bike, and want to be going towards more human-pedal-power over time vs less. As it is, the M600 is a 500W nominal, am guessing ludi ups nominal to 750W, with peaks at the 1k+ range, so unless really hammering full power - should be good. If you're going to be doing > 20mph commutes as the majority of rides - probably go with the z1, as those motors can stay at 1KW+ for quite a while until after battery runs out.

              Good luck choosing!

              Comment


                #11
                Cody Jones
                With your height, I would still go with a medium for maneuverability. I've read that the frames run large and you're at the beginning of the range for large frames so it would probably be best to downsize to medium. I'm 5'-8"-9" which puts me in the middle of the medium size. Going smaller never hurts based on my research. Going too large can negatively impact your riding style.

                Comment


                  #12
                  Thanks everyone for the advice. I went with the X2 and am excited to get it out. I have been waiting for a long time for them to be in stock and now that they have upgraded the old X1, it was well worth the wait.

                  Comment


                    #13
                    Can someone from Luna chime in on the legality of offering what looks to be an exact copy of the Watt Wagons Hydra frame? Pretty sure that mold is the IP of Watt Wagons. I believe Dengfu has been pirating it and selling it to European customers, and I know Watt Wagons is not happy about it. Whether direct or indirect, a shame to think Luna would be complicit in IP theft. Just don't think it's good business ethics.

                    Comment


                      #14
                      Originally posted by tomdav View Post
                      Can someone from Luna chime in on the legality of offering what looks to be an exact copy of the Watt Wagons Hydra frame? Pretty sure that mold is the IP of Watt Wagons. I believe Dengfu has been pirating it and selling it to European customers, and I know Watt Wagons is not happy about it. Whether direct or indirect, a shame to think Luna would be complicit in IP theft. Just don't think it's good business ethics.
                      All this really proves is that Watt Wagon and Luna buy their frames from the same seller. The Luna X2 is entirely different so you must be referring to the Z1 frame.

                      Comment


                        #15
                        More reading and some more Qs for paxtana / marcos or Luna. It’s seeming like the v2 Ludi is an offshoot (or the same as, with fw updates?) of the v2 BBHSD Ludi controller, which I’d expect is a rework of one of the existing VESC controllers. So far so good as I was somewhat concerned based on customer history with v1 M600, but this is promising!!
                        1. Is there an input for a gear sensor, or for brake cutoff switches?
                        A: I’m assuming the controller is the same as or based on the BBHSD LudiV2 and seems from Marcus’ comments in the big v2 thread, there’s support, although not confirmed with Luna nor if the brakes have cutoffs.
                        2. Much is made RE: the controller being 72v capable, but the bike as is will ship with 48v?
                        3. What are the details on the shipping batteries BMS?
                        4. Scanning github, I can see some of Marcos’ PRs, but it seems most of his commits are to a private project (1 or more; cant tell) - is the controller firmware part of, will become part of vesc-tools mainline or?
                        A: Still poking around a bit but at least part of the code is here: https://github.com/vedderb/bldc
                        5. Doing some reading on the BBHSD Ludi thread - should we assume the v2 Eggrider will be supported in a future update?
                        6. Are the tires coming tubed or tubeless?
                        A: Looks from pics tubed w/Shrader valves
                        7. What hubs are used in the wheels?
                        A: Not confirmed but some info with pic of axle on X1 info page: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...s-ebike-manual
                        8. What is the crank arm length shipping with the bike?
                        A: Not confirmed but seems like prior X1 runs went out with 150mm vs OE 170mm.
                        9. Which chainring will ship on the bikes?
                        A: X2 pics look to be 38T. Not confirmed w/Luna.
                        10. Which variant of Guide brakes? T, RE, etc. ?
                        Last edited by rtp; 11-28-2021, 08:06 AM.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X