X2 and Z1 - who’s in?

[peelaf]

Hello all,

I recently got the sur ron x and i love it. I want to get into emtb and I realize I cant bring the sur ron on trails where im at in LI new york. I want to get the z1, how fast will it go? should i buy anything with it like the motor programming cable? a bigegr chainring? I will also use it on the street and Im in to speed, based on what i am reading it seems to only go 25? lastly, it says the torque is over 95NM but shouldn't it be closer to 160 with the ultra motor?

[rtp]

Hello all,

I recently got the sur ron x and i love it. I want to get into emtb and I realize I cant bring the sur ron on trails where im at in LI new york. I want to get the z1, how fast will it go? should i buy anything with it like the motor programming cable? a bigegr chainring? I will also use it on the street and Im in to speed, based on what i am reading it seems to only go 25? lastly, it says the torque is over 95NM but shouldn't it be closer to 160 with the ultra motor?

Luna’s bike-specific pages aren’t great - looks like they did some copy/paste from the X1 page.
The Ultra should indeed show as 160nm for z1, while the M600 on the X2 is ~95nm.
Definitely get the cable and search around for programming/setting tips..I expect there are more than a few on this forum. Note if you come across BBHSD programming (not for Ludi v2 BBHSD which is entirely different..), it’s similar but you’ll’ also have a Torque tab in the app..

[peelaf]

Awesome. I ended up buying it. I love the sur Ron but it’s just not practical at all for where I live and I want to ride trails so hope this will be good. I def want more than the 25 mph or whatever I read (considering it’s such a powerful motor.) on a side note it’s really something else that these big companies have such shitty marketing teams like copy and pasting - it’s nothing short of false advertising imo. But yeah gonna look into tweaking the settings and get riding on some trails! Thanks for the response

[rtp]

I’d wait to see which chainring comes on it - if the pic is accurate (no reason to think it isnt..) it looks like a 38T chainring.and seems you could go up a few sizes, but I’d bet the Z1 w/38T goes over 30mph as is..

[Nebakanezzar]

I'm 6'5" ~290lbs, on flat paved roads i got my Apollo (similar to Z1) up to 30mph+ with throttle only, no peddling. I'm sure a lighter rider could easily hit 35-40 mph peddling.

[rtp]

Adding presumed answers into prior post as am able to. Sent some Qs to Luna, will update if any new info makes it or when the bike shows up.
At least for X2 purchasers there’s some good info in the X1 docs here: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...s-ebike-manual

[marcos]

More reading and some more Qs for paxtana / marcos or Luna. It’s seeming like the v2 Ludi is an offshoot (or the same as, with fw updates?) of the v2 BBHSD Ludi controller, which I’d expect is a rework of one of the existing VESC controllers. So far so good as I was somewhat concerned based on customer history with v1 M600, but this is promising!!
1. Is there an input for a gear sensor, or for brake cutoff switches?
A: I’m assuming the controller is the same as or based on the BBHSD LudiV2 and seems from Marcus’ comments in the big v2 thread, there’s support, although not confirmed with Luna nor if the brakes have cutoffs.
2. Much is made RE: the controller being 72v capable, but the bike as is will ship with 48v?
3. What are the details on the shipping batteries BMS?
4. Scanning github, I can see some of Marcos’ PRs, but it seems most of his commits are to a private project (1 or more; cant tell) - is the controller firmware part of, will become part of vesc-tools mainline or?
A: Still poking around 3.a bit but at least part of the code is here: https://github.com/vedderb/bldc
5. Doing some reading on the BBHSD Ludi thread - should we assume the v2 Eggrider will be supported in a future update?
6. Are the tires coming tubed or tubeless?
A: Looks from pics tubed w/Shrader valves
7. What hubs are used in the wheels?
A: Not confirmed but some info with pic of axle on X1 info page: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...s-ebike-manual
8. What is the crank arm length shipping with the bike?
A: Not confirmed but seems like prior X1 runs went out with 150mm vs OE 170mm.
9. Which chainring will ship on the bikes?
A: X2 pics look to be 38T. Not confirmed w/Luna.
10. Which variant of Guide brakes? T, RE, etc. ?

1. I couldn't figure out where you are supposed to connect a gear sensor in the stock bafang m600 wiring. I imagine if we can find that we can code the firmware support (its already there in the bbshd). Brake sensor I don't remember checking it, will take a look.

2. Bike ships with 48V. Being rated to 72V mostly improves reliability for everyone. If some f̶r̶e̶a̶k̶s̶ folks would like to run higher voltage, its doable now.

3. I don't have details on the X2 BMS

4. Bunch of private hardware repos for luna producs and bbshd/m600 firmware development that eventually merges into vesc, like the major Field Weakening and MTPA features.

5. Eggrider is not supported. Those only have a serial communication and M600 only has CANbus communication.

[rtp]

Thanks. It’s not like the X2 frame has lots of room for more battery packs but I could see someone doing a 52v easily or maybe a 60v+ below top tube-kinda-triangle battery. Not a huge deal - I think just some surprise on 48v vs 52 mainly.

Bummer on Eggrider. I had assumed CANBUS was between the controller and display or programming device/software, and as both ends of that are now ‘yours’ it could do UART. I don’t think this is anyone’s loss really (ok, other than eggrider/their biggest fans) as the shipped non-color display is unobtrusive, doesn’t sit proud of the bars, and you can always use the mobile app for ‘more’ if desired.

I think somewhere in the big LudiV2 thread you mentioned the gear sensor and brake cutoffs work the same signal-wise? Gonna do some googling… ideal is at least one cutoff, preference would actually probably be one of the brake levers (probably front).

[marcos]

gearsensor/brake cutoff situation is like this: everything happens in a single wire. That wire by default is at 5v, if a brake lever is used, the signal goes to 0V, and the gearsensor does the same. Anything that pulls that line to 0V will disable the motor. I'll check tomorrow if I mapped that signal correctly, its been a long time and I dont remember, that kind of stuff is sorted out very early in the development.

[rtp]

PS for anyone following along - Marcos answered in another thread they’re working on a KB writeup for the LudiV2 M600 version, which is essentially the same hardware as the BBHSD V2 (this is a good thing from reliability, code maintenance standpoint in general), or course with added functionality for the torque sensor and motor specifics. Possibly this week….

Marcos also started working with VESC (open controller hw/fw/tools) in 2017 or earlier - this really should be a competent and awesome controller IMO…it also has detailed data logging, mobile app, etc. Great stuff!

[marcos]

Ha, here is my first contribution to vesc in 2014:
https://github.com/vedderb/bldc-hard...&branch=master
mrkindustries used to be me. Stopped paying for that email so I cant access that github account anymore lol

Luna V2 controllers are derived from this particular inverter, its a branch of that very same schematic: https://hackaday.io/project/164932-a...tor-controller

[rtp]

Hey, I did say 'or earlier'! :)

[rtp]

Tony responded, added updated Q&As to first post.

[marcos]

quick correction that I told tony a moment ago: Unlike the bbshd, with the M600+ludi V2 you can go 72V with the stock display

[rtp]

Noted and will update, thanks!

[ah0lman]

So no gear or break sensor for the M600... What about the Z1 M620? The motor is putting out a crap load of torque, so a gear sensor is almost mandatory.

[paxtana]

The Z1 does not have a gearsensor preinstalled. However, Ultra does have the connector for it. So as far as I know you could add a gearsensor later, if you wanted to.

[rtp]

M600 also has an input for them. See Frey M600 and various M600 docs. I expect we'll wind up with something working down the line, although it's near impossible to source the right cable easily..MUCH easier on the Ultra to find parts and cables for!

[rtp]

marcos Thinking outside the box a bit. Does the controller have any GPIO inputs of any type? If so, could it be wired to a gear sensor or simple brake switch (I think you said they both provide same output, e.g. a positive 5v or 12v signal)? The controller has full motor control, so basically 'if signal X is high -> reduce power to <keep chain tight power level> for N time' ?

[rtp]

Thx Marcos! Will do a bit of digging..I think have some m600 docs saved somewhere and will search around a bit RE PnP or not options. Being able to confirm if can see the signal at the controller is kind of important. Are you thinking the sensors are doing more than simple on/0v and off/5v/high signal back? I guess can always dig out the not-at-all-tiny-and-cute oscope but I’m sure someone’s already done it AND I’d be surprised if it’s not a simple on/off.

[rtp]

ok, I see from prior comments and looking at a gear sensor it’s the simple way 5v or no.
I found a cable but meh - only from alibaba and was hard to find there with $28 shipping for a $17 cable.
No ‘good’ part #, just 1T4 for m500/600.
Meanwhile confirmed other M600 bikes with both mt5e as well as gear sensor such as Frey M600, so yay on don’t have to dig out a literal milspec 40# scope, and multiple options exist if we can confirm the controller is seeing the signal. Does controller logging have an option for recording all input signals (or, you know, some debug printf()s .. )

If what you said above(prior comment section a few up) is right (constant 5v signal, 0v for ‘engaged sensor’) - seems reversed or harness or sensor issues would effectively act as a kill switch on sensor failure, no? Meaning simple series ‘lightbulb’ circuit, 2 pin connector, 5v coming from motor/controller plug on pin1, pin2 is what’s monitored with the sensor just opening the circuit when engaged/moved?

If so - have an M600 handy? :) If not, can buy a cable or jump the pins once I have the bike and confirm it’s as simple as described.

[marcos]

The signal is dead simple, no need for a scope. Its mostly a matter of sourcing the sensor+cable+connector assembly, and then check if it reaches the controller brake input, might need a jumper wire if it doesn't, thats it.

[Nebakanezzar]

Anyone know what type of shipping lead-time we are looking at for a X2 order?

[paxtana]

Well it's definitely not months, but I would not be surprised if it takes a week or two.

[shreymo]

Anyone know when there will be a restock of the X2? Would love to pick one up.

[paxtana]

There will likely be a few cancels added to inventory after a cycle count is done on inventory, within a week or three. Actual restock of the next batch is likely to be significantly longer out, probably months.

[rtp]

Surprised if you get many cancellations, especially on the X2, but I guess it happens, e.g. couldn’t get preferred frame size or something, as there really isn’t a comparable M600 offering out there.. guess maybe on the Z1 as there are a few more options, but not at comparable price points, so yeah - guess just surprised reading that..

[paxtana]

Yes if customer made a mistake on size/model/shipping option or got laid off between the order and the shipment it may be cancelled. Not to get into too much detail but it is also not uncommon for companies to cancel a sketchy order for a high ticket item after a processor does risk assessment.

[rtp]

Anyone know what type of shipping lead-time we are looking at for a X2 order?

Did you really just sell your Apollo and now looking for an X2? :)

[Nebakanezzar]

Did you really just sell your Apollo and now looking for an X2? :)

Yup, placed an X2 order Friday night.

My main issue with the Apollo was it was too powerful, and not stealthy at all with that huge ass battery. I was planning on getting a Levo or a Rail instead, but i like the X2 with the Dengfu E10 frame, and the new controller looks very promising to be able to tweak the motor output....hoping it will work out for me better than the Apollo. lol

[peelaf]

How fast get the z1 go with a larger chain ring? I want to be able to use it to commute as well as ride trails...

[rtp]

Yup, placed an X2 order Friday night.

My main issue with the Apollo was it was too powerful, and not stealthy at all with that huge ass battery. I was planning on getting a Levo or a Rail instead, but i like the X2 with the Dengfu E10 frame, and the new controller looks very promising to be able to tweak the motor output....hoping it will work out for me better than the Apollo. lol

Nice..gotta do what makes sense. I generally avoid FB like the plague but for a few groups. On one of them, I was just looking for parts help on the heavy pig bbhsd bike I have, and had asked if their new ultra bikes were at least UART. Answered a few weeks later so said basically they should advertise that, but I picked up an X2 and all good. Someone wanted to ‘school me’ to point out ‘but this 80# pig is an Ultra and the motors are different’ etc. Um yes, thanks buddy….I intentionally wanted a lighter bike and the new controller is awesome icing on the cake…

I would have maybe gone Z1 as second choice (UART only, at least until we see later controller developments) or built an M600 bike from parts. I don’t care too much about stealthy, and a BBHSD or Ultra with enough juice to ride distance at full power is neat, but I’ve got a DRZ and other motorcycles for that itch, while I wouldn’t mind using the X2 as a way to both get fit and ease into an analog MTB at some point way down the line.

The tuner in me says ‘no such thing as too much power’ but… different tools for different purposes. Hope you love the X2!