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    My Ludi V2 X2

    Going to use this thread to just document info, changes, etc. as my X2 has arrived, and yeah - I already have plans for it for some changes.. ;)

    Just for some background, I grew up riding dirt bikes/motorcycles, have wrenched on cars and motorcycles most of my life, have ridden off-road (dirt bike and dual-sports) across a couple of foreign/non-US countries - not an expert, but I don't mind getting dirty or a bit of air time. My wife and I rented ebikes to do some sightseeing on an overseas trip, and as we both really liked it, got her a (used) Bosch powered Gazelle and a FS BBHSD for myself when we got back. We ride a mixture of single track, double track, and some road, with the primary goals being having together time and also getting into better shape. I'm also hoping to convince her to shift to an eMTB over time, and I'd like to get into harder single track.

    Looking around, most of the suitable bikes out there were heavy pigs, which I had one already - check the weights and make sure it's with battery, and most FS bikes with Bafang motors (can't cope with 20mph limits, although some now do 28mph limits and Orbea Wild for example would be a nice bike if it increased the limit to 28mph..) are all at, approaching, or even over 80lbs or so, many of them being fat bikes. There's the WattWagon Hydra which as an Innotrace programmable controller and an Ultra motor, with a carbon fiber frame, which should be an awesome ride, but some unknown waiting time and it can get spendy quickly. There are a few Frey models (M600, EX) which look to be pretty solid bikes, but assume 6 month wait from order, metal frames, and rather heavy, as well as no guarantee of a UART programmable Ultra motor. The Sondors Rockstar is 80#. There are others - I looked at more than 20 different (although some had same frame, minor component differences) bikes.

    I had waffled for a while between Ultra and M600, and also weight, while noting both - I LIKE power as well as programmability, but I'd moved to mostly using my BBHSD bike on level 2 of 9 for a majority of rides, so had been leaning towards the M600 option, as well as getting away from fat tire bikes (fun IMO, but already have suspension, and not beach riding in general).

    I wound up with a spreadsheet of parts to build my own, and prices. FWIW, Ultra or M600 based, I was right around $5K USD plus or minus a bit depending on paint myself vs cerakote, Pike Ultimate vs other options, etc..but was hard-pressed in current pricing + frame/motor/shipping to get much lower. I was ready after many hours of convo with China suppliers, to go order my parts, but I recalled some mention somewhere on the Luna forum for 'there may be a Black Friday surprise' and I had it in my head it was a batch of X1s, so waited...

    Had been checking Luna's site and did again on waking up Black Friday, and surprise - the Thanksgiving/black Friday. Have to say I had a bit of waffling between the Z1 and X2, but two things really drove my choice:
    1. I don't need more power even though it would be fun.
    2. The Ludi v2 is a REAL programmable controller with a solid pedigree from being associated with VESC, and Marcos has been doing controller work for a long time. This was the biggest gripe on the M600 and I can't stress it enough - if you're buying an X2, get the controller IMO.

    Again - I couldn't build the bike even with similar components, for my cost, so it was a no-brainer, although I still had more thought on frame size. There is a lot of info for the X2 frame (E10) if you google 'E10 build' but it's buried all over the place. I did comparisons to the current bike size, but of course some things like standover height and a few others were missing across the specs I had on hand. At 6' and 225-230# (hoping to go down a bit..), 32" inseam, I could find others of at least similar height saying 'definitely' L frame, and others 'definitely' Medium frame. Rolled the dice and went with Medium, thinking the side benefit is that may also let my wife ride it while I work on 'converting' her to an eMTB...eventually. Maybe. ;)

    Placed the order and the first round X2s sold out within hours, apparently the Med frames sold out first. I already had some plans for the bike, as the color scheme is kind of close to my car, which is metallic grey with black and red accents, which I've done custom on prior cars as I really dig the color scheme...so ordered some Hope floating rotors with red centers, and some red and grey pedals. Meanwhile, I have a garage full of mechanic and carpentry tools but was missing some bike stuff still so started ordering to fill in my tool set (I never bring my cars to a shop so why would I ever bring a bicycle?!? :) ).

    A nice thing about the Yari (or Pike) is their internals can be upgraded to Ultimate level for a few hundred bucks. In reality, the Yari by itself is a decent enough fork, but hey - it's Xmas, so I went ahead and picked up the upgrade spring and damper, although plan to ride the bike a while with the base Yari to be able to do a real comparison and contrast.

    So - the wait began. I had no idea when they were actually shipping and figured Luna was busy enough without more 'support' tickets inbound. When a friend mentioned he got a ship notice for his Z1 ordered after me, I was wondering a bit but figured - ahh, adding Ludi controller, but in reality I had received the ship notification Nov 29th - it just got buried in BF Xmas shopping mailbox flood.

    Was going to call FedEx to make sure they scheduled a time for delivery, but they called me first and we set a time window of 3-4 hours, and they said they'd call 30 mins out. FedEx tracking is usually pretty good, but for freight it's a bit wonky - it went to 'shipment exception' which normally means they sent something to the wrong place, but that was because they noted we had an agreed on time, while progress kept saying 'in transit' even as new locations were added (versus 'location scan' or similar), but when I finally saw the name of a town 20 miles or so north, I figured it might really make it here on time.

    Misc X2 relevant resources:
    The X2 is a Dengfu E10 frame with Bafang M600 motor, with or without LudiV2 controller and either RockShox or DNM suspension. There is a ton of relevant info out there - here's my collection of links that some may find helpful..

    Luna's new customer/bike info: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...n-introduction
    Bafang display DP C240 info: https://bradland.github.io/unofficia...isplay-manual/
    Various tips and videos from Luna's Seb (lead tech/mech): https://www.youtube.com/user/sebzbox/videos
    Luna X1 KB as nearly all things X1 also apply to the X2: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...s-ebike-manual
    Luna X2 KB (work in progress): https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...luna-x2-manual
    Ludi V2 controller documentation, mobile app link and info: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...-documentation
    RockShox fork parts list. Tuning recommendations and upgrade part details lookup page (uses your forks S/N): https://trailhead.rockshox.com/en/search/
    (my fork in late 2021/early 2022 is a Rockshox Yari model FS-YARI-RC-B3 150mm)
    Bafang M600 dealer manual: https://github.com/OpenSourceEBike/B...0%5D%20(1).pdf
    Dengfu E10 frame geometry: https://www.dengfubike.com/pages/e10-geometry
    Last edited by rtp; 01-11-2022, 10:18 AM.

    #2
    UNBOXING - IT'S HERE!!
    No advance notice like FedEx claimed, but hey - it arrived! Box looked to be in decent condition, a tear but thankfully nothing looking like a forklift or pallet jack through it!

    Opening it up, it looked very well packed (vs for example, I bought a spare set of wheels from Eunorau and they looked like they were literally thrown into the box) - chain stays padded/wrapped, wheel and bars padded and ziptied, etc. My knife and scissors got a bit of a workout for a bit.. ;)

    Opening the box looked like it was really well packed..

    Comment


      #3
      (Forum editor is weird, can't edit and insert pics or re-order them for some reason, so gotta do multiple posts.. :-/ )
      PUTTING IT TOGETHER
      Taking it out of the box - everything is strapped together and padded. The battery is already in the bike, while you have one box of small parts including the pedal set and 'extras' from the Yari (2 bottomless tokens), SRAM, and some reflectors. The battery charger is in another box, while there's also a bag of black 'stickers' I originally thought was maybe frame protection but not sure quite what it is - 'touch-up' stickers?

      Comment


        #4
        Noticed after removing the strapped wheel there was a frame scuff. Not sure how honestly, as I'm not sure how it could really be packed any better other than perhaps double-boxed and 'slots' for the charger and small parts box in an insert, but there it was. Haven't tried to clean it up yet, and looks like nothing dug into the carbon fiber, thankfully.

        Comment


          #5
          Assembly is a piece of cake. Seems like cables may be longer than hat I sae some X1 owners commenting on, plenty of slack to move display a bit. I dig the small display, its tucked and hidden, although ‘i wouldn’t mind a bar for watts(can set the small line to show power, plus of course phone app dashboard but I think will stay minimal except for riding plotted/mapped rides.

          Mounted the bars, and checked general torque for suspension and shock linkage, chainwheel bolts, etc. Most were indeed tight which is good - have it on list for weekend to do full round of remove/grease/loctite for piece of mind.

          I put on my set of pedals and swapped the front rotor for a Hope 200mm red floating rotor. Note - two piece rotors may rub on the calipers or mounts and may require minor filing!

          The M600 freewheel is like butter, basically zero resistance back-pedaling, etc.

          Note - there are NO spacers on the X2 versus the X1...otherwise well, I'm missing them and should have a bunch of slop in the front wheel..

          Lubed the front axle and torqued down. Aired up front fort to 110# for starters, 220# rear shock, set fork compression and rebound to middle of clicks on both for starters, bounced on the bike a bit then re-checked and aired back up to above numbers.

          Put the bike on the stand (I need to work on how to make this easier, much lighter than the BBHSD fat bike but not as nice to grab by seat post...), to check derailleur, loosened and adjusted calipers, aired tires for time being to ~24# F/R (they were at ~10PSI out of box, too low for a road run with tubes...), lubed chain.

          Derailleur was pretty dialed in as is..may fine-tune this weekend but all gears reachable and limits set to not come off on either side.

          Oh - thought I had a bum dropper at first, but suspect more like new components. Loosened seatpost clamp a bit and pulled on seat while hitting dropper lever and she popped up, adjusted height quickly (needs to come up another inch or two..tomorrow). Need to add some carbon assembly grease to the seat post - will do shortly.

          Comment


            #6
            No t-shirt, tool kit or water bottle :( Oh well, was nice for the original X1 purchasers, and I would have used the toolkit as the tow vehicle set and left in there, but can't complain..

            The cockpit controls/layout need some help. The dropper is set on the right, throttle on the left, and the shifter is pretty tight up against the brakes.
            The brakes (G2 R) seem to be 2 finger levers with adjustability and feel pretty good, but some overall adjustment of controls is needed. I have a horizontal throttle coming and that may let me sort it, or may consider a Matchmaker type setup - TBD.

            The wheels seem to be true on quick check, maybe a couple of looser spokes but nothing drastic. Will check and tension in full on the weekend.

            I'm unsure what I think of the seat - it's a WTB seat, narrowish MTB style. Initial thought was will have to go, but will give it a few weeks and see. Plan to do a 20 mile shakeout right this weekend across single, doubletrack and a bit of road.

            I DO wish the bike had water bottle bosses...somewhere - not convinced could fit a normal sized bottle with the geo, but could use it for a small toolkit mount were one there.

            There were some 'splotches' on the bike. I'm not positive how the bike is painted - is it CF then sand, spray matter, add LUNA and X-2 then clear-coated or? Initial thought was maybe the shock or something leaked a bit of fluid, but haven't done a full clean on the bike yet.

            The battery and battery compartment - the cover has sides on it and it seems fairly tight. Not sure on X1 by comparison but there's a fair amount of aluminum up at the top of frame above the battery as well. Will take a deeper look this weekend. Battery is similar to my Samsung cell Eunorau batteries with the small handle - not sure the style name, will post dimensions and pics later. The charge socket is well 'hidden' on the non-drive-side on the frame right above the motor behind a black grommet - not gonna lie, it took me a bit to find. No LEDs on the battery or cover that I saw. What I did NOT see that I need to look again for, is a charge socket for charging the battery removed from the bike - may have missed it and will look again.

            Finally - ready to ride, and parked post ride as a joke to my wife when she came back from work... Santa brought something ;)

            Comment


              #7
              FIRST (Short) RIDE IMPRESSIONS
              I had several work meetings, so unfortunately only had time to take it out for a mile, and the battery was at 51%, so wanted to at least get a quick sanity check ride on 'is anything obvious broken?'.. so just put it into L2 of 5 (can select on display between 3, 5, 9 assist levels). I have a kind of crazy driveway - winding and uphill. I ride the BBHSD normally on L2, but I put it on 9 going up the driveway and my wife who sometimes rides her Bosch/Gazelle unassisted, puts it into Turbo mode to get up the driveway...

              As soon as I put pressure on the pedal - assistance was there.
              I put the bike into L3 to see what it felt like going up the driveway from hell/hill, and it felt easier and much better than riding the BBHSD on L9.

              Ran through the gears a bit down the road before turning around, went up to only 20mph or so for now.
              I'd been concerned on sizing, but the geo, reach, bar width, etc. all felt good - pending longer shakeout ride this weekend at least. Will need to raise the seat another inch or two but that's well within the min insertion range.

              Unfortunately, I couldn't install the v2 Luna app on my purchased Android phone, possibly down to it having only 2GB of RAM, but have another phone en route.
              The frame feels pretty beefy/sturdy and the suspension linkage looks to be pretty heavy duty.

              Overall, I'm pretty happy with the bike. Will reserve judgement for the longer ride running through assist modes, top speed, and some single-track, but right now ver concerns on either the frame size, general quality, or choosing the X2 over the Z1. Also can't wait to get into the app as well, a huge win versus any of the Ultra CANBUS or even other M600 options.

              ​​​​​​​More as it comes..

              Comment


                #8
                paxtana Your forum software flagged one of my posts in this thread as a possible spammer, can you pls 'approve' it? I wrote some stuff up to make sure I posted offline, so guessing it's in pasted text then short time to hit submit etc. or something..

                Second still short ride
                I won't be able to install the app until the new phone arrives, but someone somewhere had mentioned it seemed like L1 and L2 were 'needing work' when set on 9 assist levels (can set to 3, 5 or 9 via display). I needed to get a second ride in anyways, although it's 40* here, so set it to 9 levels, and set the bottom display line to read power (can cycle through modes once display is on by tapping power button), and gave a quick run through the gears. L1 seemed to be set around 150W, L2 250W, L3 350W or more, and L9 saw up over 1kW, on reasonably flat grounds. Not saying these are exact #s, as the app and VESC tool are the way to get the real ones, but it seems programmed 'reasonably and progressively' out of the box on the L2 IMO.

                I was able to reasonably easy pedal (no throttle) up to around 30mph display-indicated on flat ground, and felt like was not 'ghost pedaling' like on the BBSHD. I can probably get a bit more with higher cadence and not freezing outside.. ;) I had thought I might want to go up to a 40 or 42T chainring, but now I'm not so sure it's needed. This was on a brief L9 stint, so will see how it goes on lower levels on a longer ride, but the bike feels really nice so far in it's responsiveness and overall.

                ETA: Just confirming, power levels with 9 settings are indeed logical and progressive out of box in 11% increments which I thought was the case, but didn't read the actual doc, or RTFM for those that know the acronym ;)

                Click image for larger version

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                Last edited by rtp; 12-09-2021, 12:40 PM.

                Comment


                • paxtana
                  paxtana commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Approved and whitelisted your acct

                • rtp
                  rtp commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Thanks; I promise I'm not a spammer. :)

                #9
                I saw that PAS breakdown chart before, do you know what default level your x-2 was shipped in? Ludi v2 has three in the app screenshots I have seen (street, trail and ludicrous)

                Comment


                • rtp
                  rtp commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Not positive. I think it was Trail but totally unknown at this point, ands seems like some shipped in Street so not sure it's consistent..

                #10
                Hey RTP,

                let me know how raising your seat goes.

                i tried to raise mine a few inches, but when i sat on the seat the dropper went down, i lowered the seat back and the dropper worked fine again...looks like the cable is too short. I've been watching a few YouTube vids on seat post adjustment but would love to see what you find before i start taking shit apart, lol.

                Comment


                • rtp
                  rtp commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yeah lol, read the full x1 thread as well. Wondering if the cables are trimmed or same length across frame sizes… ?
                  Will give it a shot tomorrow or Sat before hopefully a 20 mile ride…

                • carlb4u
                  carlb4u commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Had to adjust my seat cable also really easy to do
                  My cable was tight had to push cable moderately to get it to slide up while pulling gently on seat also do not over tighten seat post clamp or you could damage frame
                  [url]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&ua ct=8&ved=2ahUKEwihkpfC1dr0AhVUGs0KHT1TDMcQFnoECAcQ Aw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3 D1xpxFNBE-gI&usg=AOvVaw2

                • rtp
                  rtp commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Thanks carlb4u - had seen that before..it’s not slipping, just need to slide it up a bit but it’s a good vid. Will pull it regardless as I want to get some carbon assembly paste in there before taking it out tomorrow.

                  BTW - see the v2 controller thread, I added a pic and some more info for you to try on app connecting to controller…

                #11
                Originally posted by Steelsnow View Post
                I saw that PAS breakdown chart before, do you know what default level your x-2 was shipped in? Ludi v2 has three in the app screenshots I have seen (street, trail and ludicrous)
                Good Q - not sure as the app wouldn’t install on my phone. Marcos helped sort that (32 bit build, go figure on a 2021 phone!), but I’m not yet able to pair - not seeing the controller via BT. I’m not sure of the mapping of those profiles to the power levels but bet marcos can clarify, maybe in the v2 thread so he sees it?

                Added: Asked the Q in the Ludi V2 M600 thread here: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...-documentation
                Last edited by rtp; 12-10-2021, 09:46 AM.

                Comment


                  #12
                  Did a quick rework attempt on the controls. The display control (power, +/-) cable is on the short side vs display position, but was entirely in the wrong spot for me from Luna.
                  The Bafang OE throttle is also too wide and with a poorly positioned cable exit position, as I had wanted to do from outside of bar inwards: Display Control, Throttle, brake - which might not be entirely ideal with the 2 finger brake but would be useable....but the throttle thumb lever as is difficult to position so both it and the display control are positioned properly, and the thumb lever is too wide. I have a different throttle coming which may help, and may try just narrowing the thumb lever via file to see if it's any better.

                  Throttle ordered for now:

                  Not sure it will reach properly or not, but goal is minimal hand movement from the grip. You can look for bafang thumb throttle or thumb throttle '108x' to find one - am assuming nothing special vs BBS* throttles but will find out when it arrives.

                  The throttle looks 'high' but need to NOT nudge the power button while riding...will see how it works out shortly and wait for next throttle.
                  Left bar for now:
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                  Not much to do on the right side other than minor adjustment. Luna had the dropper lever adjuster wedged against/tucket under the brake/shifter, which is nice for 'protection' of the cable but was WAY high for quick/easy use. The shifter is push/push and as now adjusted, is a bit tight looking - may still need to adjust a bit.

                  I can see why people look to move to SRAM Matchmaker mounts or Shimano iSync(I think...forget their equivalent) and likely will but only once I sort if sticking to SRAM or not, etc., or windup up with a hybrid set across everything first. I expect I'll be moving to a 8-10spd as I wear out the NX, but TBD on final setup.

                  Right bar:
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                  Last edited by rtp; 04-03-2022, 12:55 PM.

                  Comment


                    #13
                    Quick update on the app. Got a 32gb it app build from Marcos, as apparently even some 2021 Android phones still come with 32 bit OS or dependent libraries vs expected 64 bit.
                    This got the app installed but I need to sort bluetooth connectivity - Putting the phone on a pedal sitting right next to the controller (note power and display on bike MUST be on to power the bluetooth in the controller!), I can ‘see’ the controller (shows as VESC-<something>) and connect to it, read/write BUT I can’t move the phone even 12” without BT disconnecting. Going for a ride tomorrow before digging into further (bike will ride fine, just cant program via app..yet_. See pic in v2 ludi thread if having similar issues and the pic showing the external antenna wire that should be visible on side of motor…

                    Comment


                      #14
                      Ran through the bike a bit further and going to head out for 10-20 miles.

                      Adjusting the seat became a pain in the ass - the video is good, but as I wanted to coat it in carbon assembly paste I had to pull the post all the way out. Loosened the dropper level and fed some slack into the frame, but it's a bit fidgety as the cable turns and is kind of tight within the frame. Got it done, and interestingly the frame seat post clamp says 8Nm while the KS manual says don't go over 5Nm or it may prevent operation - which is the state mine was originally in, possibly from being a bit too tight. Split the difference for now and torqued to 6Nm, knowing pretty much all torque wrenches aren't exactly calibrated and have some slop...

                      I still don't know what the 'stickers' are for per Luna, but while I have a frame laminate kit coming and a phone mount (unsure if will use on the X2), for the time being I need to mount a top tube small bag for my phone/maps/route app, so used two of them to at least stop the plastic buckle from scuffing up the frame.

                      Threw on a chain stay protector - will probably extend forward once the laminate material shows up. The chain stays are pretty big in diameter, so had to do some incremental stretching, but good for now, IMO.

                      Comment


                        #15
                        FIRST LONGER RIDE IMPRESSIONS
                        Did my first real ride today - 15 mile loop of dirt and gravel, then another 5 miles or so on random paths, 90% of which was in L2 of 9.
                        I dropped to around 70-something percent battery…need to see if can set the display to voltage..

                        The bike was overall very good - soooo much better than my BBHSD. Brakes and overall geo feels good, although I’m not so sure on the seat.

                        Will need to take a look at suspension settings, likely too stiff on compression.
                        I rode for a bit of flat with zero assist - wasn’t too bad but didn’t try it up one of the long inclines…

                        Surprisingly, I also got my wife to swap for a bit, so I rode her Bosch-powered Gazelle for a few miles. Better yet - she liked it. :)
                        The torque-sensing on the LudiV2 is pretty nice overall, doesn’t seem to stutter or overrun, although I think we both agreed the Bosch assistance is a bit more progressive - I was reminded of the first time I jumped on and was surprised as the bike was assisting almost as I put my foot on the pedal. I haven’t been able to get my phone to keep connection yet, but might look into lengthening the assist ‘ramp’ if possible to do so.

                        Having said that, it can be adjusted to easily, IMO; no waiting for assist like my BBSHD, pretty natural feeling but ‘more’ power at the rear wheel..really nice, IMO, and once moving I really didnt notice much difference in feel vs the Bosch - not a bad thing. I’d say default L2 is above Bosch ECO but unsure if it’s at tour level or not. I set my bottom display line to power but can’t get that from my wife’s bike.

                        For my purposes, I absolutely think this was the right decision over the Z1./Ultra. I need to get a better feel for real range, sort my BT connective issues and some minor things/customize it for me, but overall very pleased.

                        Pic is from tail end of ride after coming off the trails - some misc park trails etc.
                        Click image for larger version

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                        Comment


                        • rtp
                          rtp commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Bilzebub I think the medium is a good fit for me overall, including the reach. I may get a longer dropper post at some point, just to have the seat go fully down when I want it to, but overall happy and suspecting on a large I might have needed to swap bars as reach feels good to me on the med..

                        • JJZ
                          JJZ commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Great write up. I am debating between a small and a medium. Curious as to what the step over height is on your medium? I am 5'7" and their sizing charts recommends medium, but according to their specs, the step height is 32" which really seems high for a medium. My inseam is around 30"-31". How well does your wife fit on it?

                        • rtp
                          rtp commented
                          Editing a comment
                          JJZ I think the standover heights published are on the higher-than-reality side. Wife has no issues. Been a busy work week w/late nights, but will try to measure standover when I get a chance. My inseam is like 31.5”-32” and it’s just not an issue. I think you’d be fine honestly.
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