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    I know there is a lot of interest in top speed, in this thread. I'd like to reflect upon what Top Speed really means, in practice.

    Whenever I test a new ride for top speed, I do what many others do. Give the vehicle all the speed enablers I can. Magazines and manufacturers would be expected to do the same, and consumers comparing their own numbers should, too, for comparable results.

    For an e-bike, that would include, in my opinion, at least:
    1. Full charge. Warm cells. (not cold anyway)
    2. No headwind at all.
    3. No uphill at all.
    4. Rider hunching over for low drag.
    5. Firm to hard tire pressure.
    6. No big panniers, cargo, puffy coats, or extra-heavy riders, etc.





    These things all matter.

    One example: Just a few miles of riding will drop pack voltage below peak, enough to noticeably reduce top speed capability. In such a case, you wouldn't get the same results as one who unplugged right before testing. When I check my own bike's top speed, you can bet I'll do it fresh off the charger! I'd expect any builder to do the same.

    So, shouldn't users do this, too, if they want to 'check' a builder's stated top speed capability and share it?

    I think it's only fair to Luna, or any other manufacturer, to give their bike the best conditions possible, if you are going to quote a top speed capability from your own evaluations. Everybody can do what they like, sure, but in this case, it would be helpful to try to be precise, and not use conditions which disadvantage the bike. As usual in most any kind of speed trials.

    This isn't a special request, just how it works in general. Still, it's a 'norm' that's no doubt unfamiliar to many. It's easy to show a vehicle topping out at less than optimal speeds. Harder to let it run at peak performance, so to speak.
    • For a car on 1/4 mile, typically they pick good weather, empty the trunk, roll up the windows, drop tire pressure a little, make sure the air filter is fresh, run good gas, run cool engine, turn off the A/C, and kick the passengers out.
    • For a boat, no heavy waves or winds, pilot only.
    • For a horse, real skinny rider, firm ground.
    • Etc etc...





    I thought it might be a helpful bit of background, here. I suspect that none of the posted top speeds in this thread were run with full packs, even. I'm not saying that's bad intent, just that it wouldn't be optimal.
    Last edited by JPLabs; 04-09-2018, 03:41 PM. Reason: Added "warm cells"
    Fabrication is fun! Build something today. Show someone. Let them help. Inspire and share. Spread the desire.

    Comment


    • calfee20
      calfee20 commented
      Editing a comment
      This whole thread is reminding me of a BBSHD discussion from a year ago. https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...mize-top-speed

    • JPLabs
      JPLabs commented
      Editing a comment
      Haha, I remember that, Mr. Plywood. We saw a LOT of variation in top speed claims and examples, there. That is a pertinent reference, too, thanks.

      At least in this case, we can disregard gearing. I think....Luna already stated to run in top gear, IIRC. With some bikes, too-tall gear selection can be another dimension of variation. So, this situation is more straightforward.
      Last edited by JPLabs; 04-09-2018, 03:47 PM.

    Interestingly, Luna removed "40 miles per hour top speed" from the Quick Stats on the Apex description...

    Comment


    • NorCal
      NorCal commented
      Editing a comment
      I picked the Apex with the Ultra motor because it was their newest most powerful motor, the Apex sleek frame design, and Luna's reputation. I must admit, the advertised "40 miles per hour top speed" was also a huge factor. I wanted great low end torque although I'm also addicted to higher top speeds.

    • xcnick
      xcnick commented
      Editing a comment
      When you are flat out top speed how much power are you pulling? If it is not full power try taller gears. If it is full power try less.

      Top speed is a stupid human trick, as Letterman would say, but I play once in a while. A 48 front to 11 rear and 46 to 11 give me the same 39mph on a Ludi BBSHD, so my best gearing is somewhere near here. A 42 to 11 will not show full power at full throttle and top speed. 52 to 11 is a bit slower and shows full power.

      Ferrari was wrong when he said aerodynamics is for people who can't build motors. Skinny tires and a Lycra suit will probably get me the last mile per hour someday. PS I am just chasing the number on the display, I have no idea how fast it really is.
      Last edited by xcnick; 04-10-2018, 08:07 AM.

    • AZguy
      AZguy commented
      Editing a comment
      I have similar experience as xcnick in that my stock BBSHD fattie will top out at less than 35mph with 42t feeding 11t but with a smaller 39t feeding the 11t it will top out >35mph (I don't know where exactly it's too fast for me at that point). So clearly it is torque limited with the larger chain ring that reduces torque to the rear wheel. I don't know if the smaller one ever reaches the speed limitation dictated by the motor and battery voltage but clearly it's turning faster than just the ratio of the two chain rings due to supplying more torque to the rear wheel...

    The game afoot is to balance power, traction, and skill. When you get the first two but not the last it becomes really fun.

    In the dirt a 42 front to 48 back will climb a tree, so developing a harem of tires is a fun learning experience. I know the Apex is not focused on dirt, but with rear suspension it should hook up better than the same set up on a hard tail.

    How much traction can you get on pavement? I love some video of knee dragging with different tires. The SurRon with super moto tires would be great video too.

    Comment


    • AZguy
      AZguy commented
      Editing a comment
      In the world of hard surface motos we'd refer to each others "chicken strips".... The [hopefully tiny] strip of rubber on each side of the tread that isn't getting used. =]

      With the 4.7" bulldozers on my BBSHD they are showing aggressive use except for the last 1/8 - 1/4". I've always bee a little asymmetrical with left turns a little narrower than right turns. Ironically as xcnick may relate, soaring I climb better in left turns too....

    I know this is probably a long shot, but...

    If anyone in the Seattle area has ordered one of these and is willing to let me come check it out in person, please send me a PM. I know if I had one, I wouldn't want to be bombarded with requests, but before plunking down that kind of cash, it would be ideal to be able to see it live and sit in the seat to confirm that it "fits," etc. I'd be willing to bring some home brew or craft beers and talk e-bikes if you're interested. Thanks for considering. :-)

    Comment


      The Apex is NOT Luna's best! Leaving out test data is as fashionable as fake news and alternate facts. It has never been tested like the 3000. Maybe because of the sign warning of injury and death.
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      We have no data how it handles big air.

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      And the ever popular rail ride.

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      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVT4akEyWDc&t=4s

      Comment


      • NorCal
        NorCal commented
        Editing a comment
        Interesting, but what does this have to do with the tread "Luna Apex Bike - ask us anything"

      • xcnick
        xcnick commented
        Editing a comment
        OK, I am sorry. I did try to tie into the claim of the Apex being the best and the recent data removal covered in this thread. Then there is the inside joke of the 3000 Robo21 sold me to buy his Apex. A small bit about Luna being so busy with the Apex and SurRon there is no time for the Wolf. (Just a joke about complete bikes vs. DYI.) I feel like I told a decent joke, and now killed it by explaining it. Back to the doggy ambulance. <unscrible>
        Last edited by xcnick; 04-11-2018, 08:24 AM.

      • robo21
        robo21 commented
        Editing a comment
        No, trust me, you didn't kill it. I was LMAO (and my wife too), your joke was hilarious! Hence the comment "you missed your calling..." :-)

      Oh I have done some writing:
      http://www.amazon.com/Naomi-Aviatrix...dp/1453883851/

      Very stifling compared to trolling, getting you to laugh, and working in a shameless plug.

      Is this what you meant for the dogs?
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      • robo21
        robo21 commented
        Editing a comment
        That is very cool for small dogs but not what I meant, I was attempting to do a counter jab by hinting that you needed sled dogs to pull your 3000 :-p

        I would need a sidecar for Rocky or Molly - He is 201 lbs she is 175. I like your trailer though.

      • xcnick
        xcnick commented
        Editing a comment
        Oh I got it, just a sore spot having sled dogs who won't pull. I hope the doggy ambulance is never needed, but it is a great example of how much work electric bikes can do. Here is the trailer for your Apex. Rated at 150lbs. When it gets back in stock I will see if I can break it with 200lbs.
        https://rambobikes.com/product/r180-bike-cart/

      • robo21
        robo21 commented
        Editing a comment
        Good luck breaking it with 200 lbs, its rated capacity is 300 lbs. And I do believe the Apex would pull that trailer, fully loaded, without a complaint. That would have hauled our big boy @ 251 lbs if he was still alive. Today is National Pet Day according to the local news so it's appropriate conversation.

      I actually have a good Apex question. How are you enjoying the pedal assist?

      Subjective information can be more useful than engineering data if we understand the matrix. I would like to hear from anybody, but I know in Robo21's case he rides for fitness, and this questions the cadence only of his old ride to his new shinny delivered before my Wolf ultimate ebike The Apex.

      However I do have some Gonzo journalism and redneck engenerring to test the moderators. When you see this sign, YMMV.
      Click image for larger version  Name:	Gonzo.png Views:	1 Size:	129.5 KB ID:	61993
      So why would anyone discard my daily ride like an ugly hooker? Well one subjective report in this thread say Apex suspension is better than a Body Float on a Really Fat Bike. The doubting Thomas I am, meant doing my own tests and shockingly the Body Float on a hard road tire was better on road and even some gravel. All other tests and resulting crashes conclude a 4.8 fat bike is just crazy and the real problem. It is like riding a Super Ball. You young guys might want to google that one.

      However in my crazy matrix the rear isn't big enough, but the 4.8 in the front is a demon out to kill me! Nobody else complains about this gyroscope of grief, so I would have to steal an Apex to see if it is better. (Robo wisely wouldn't tell me where he lives.) Without testing I will put a 3” twenty niner on the front for the summer which I hope is well below the threshold of terror.

      A threshold is not just a point of diminishing returns. It is that point where you say an expletive. Not just “&%$*%@! I am going to die”, but also “Oh my God, that was fun”. Since I can't balance my checkbook let alone do esoteric math I just try everything until I get that smile, which often mistaken for a dirty look.

      Is torque sensing that satisfying? Do you need a cigarette after you ride?

      When I first read the Apex was the best ever or whatever the claim, I was ROTFLMAO because intended use is so important. Maybe Paxtana can tell me if I was laughing at them or with them. Either way the Apex is probably the best for some job and will deliver that dirty look on the riders face.

      I think Paxtana threw out something about not doing zero to sixty in a car with a passenger. Direct comparison, but completely below the OMG threshold. 175 pound person in a three thousand pound car is a fraction of the total. The Redneck Engenneer recognizes the ebike weighs less than the load and is a great opportunity to test to destruction with a very big hammer.

      So I weigh 150 and my buddy an athletic 300. Let's look at the math. Doubling the load on an ebike is a big number exponential multiplier compared to the car example which is a fraction of who gives a damn. (New math results may differ slightly.) We are tooling along a long boring uphill grade and I say: “look down and tell me how many amps you are pulling”. “Twenty five” he says. That is the Ludi maxed out. “How about you” he asked innocently. But it isn't innocent because it puts me in the awkward situation of telling my best friend how fat he really is. “A little less than half that.” Short pause and: “Does that mean I can only go half as far?” he questions with the kind of range anxiety known only to those who are below their starting point. “Sounds like a you problem, but interesting math, show your work for extra credit.”

      This works both ways. The best thing about an ebike is that it weighs less than me. I can throw it around. Now, can my athletic 300 pound friend throw an 80 pound Apex further than I can throw my 55 pound enduro ebike? He can bench press twice what I can, friggin' UPS driver, so my bet is on him and the 80 pound bike. At first it sounds as silly as the grinding the rail test, but think how often you put it on the car. The big thing for me is how often I hike and bike, over the fallen tree, up the short sand hill, etc.

      It is so much harder to think of a bike for someone else than my usual self centered first world concerns I have about my quiver. I certainly would not do this for money. What is the shock like at 300 pounds? What if I load it up with 300 pound rider, camping gear and a trailer with seventy pounds of dear meat? With the right tires I bet this could be a better hunting rig than the two fat bikes advertised as hunting rigs. Is this the use they meant by best, ultimate, apex?
      Last edited by xcnick; 04-13-2018, 10:06 AM.

      Comment


      • calfee20
        calfee20 commented
        Editing a comment
        A general rule of thumb for automobile 1/4 mile times. Every additional 100 pounds will increase your time by .1 seconds.

      • robo21
        robo21 commented
        Editing a comment
        That is a good rule of thumb calfee20, I remember a thread from the Corvette Forum (my previous track car was a Z06) where a forum member tested the theory with a "Mythbusters" like approach to testing and lo and behold he found that 100# did equal about .1 second of the E.T.

      Originally posted by xcnick View Post
      I actually have a good Apex question. How are you enjoying the pedal assist?

      Subjective information can be more useful than engineering data if we understand the matrix. I would like to hear from anybody, but I know in Robo21's case he rides for fitness, and this questions the cadence only of his old ride to his new shinny delivered before my Wolf ultimate ebike The Apex.

      However I do have some Gonzo journalism and redneck engenerring to test the moderators. When you see this sign, YMMV.
      Click image for larger version Name:	Gonzo.png Views:	1 Size:	129.5 KB ID:	61993
      So why would anyone discard my daily ride like an ugly hooker? Well one subjective report in this thread say Apex suspension is better than a Body Float on a Really Fat Bike. The doubting Thomas I am, meant doing my own tests and shockingly the Body Float on a hard road tire was better on road and even some gravel. All other tests and resulting crashes conclude a 4.8 fat bike is just crazy and the real problem. It is like riding a Super Ball. You young guys might want to google that one.

      However in my crazy matrix the rear isn't big enough, but the 4.8 in the front is a demon out to kill me! Nobody else complains about this gyroscope of grief, so I would have to steal an Apex to see if it is better. (Robo wisely wouldn't tell me where he lives.) Without testing I will put a 3” twenty niner on the front for the summer which I hope is well below the threshold of terror.

      A threshold is not just a point of diminishing returns. It is that point where you say an expletive. Not just “&%$*%@! I am going to die”, but also “Oh my God, that was fun”. Since I can't balance my checkbook let alone do esoteric math I just try everything until I get that smile, which often mistaken for a dirty look.

      Is torque sensing that satisfying? Do you need a cigarette after you ride?

      When I first read the Apex was the best ever or whatever the claim, I was ROTFLMAO because intended use is so important. Maybe Paxtana can tell me if I was laughing at them or with them. Either way the Apex is probably the best for some job and will deliver that dirty look on the riders face.

      I think Paxtana threw out something about not doing zero to sixty in a car with a passenger. Direct comparison, but completely below the OMG threshold. 175 pound person in a three thousand pound car is a fraction of the total. The Redneck Engenneer recognizes the ebike weighs less than the load and is a great opportunity to test to destruction with a very big hammer.

      So I weigh 150 and my buddy an athletic 300. Let's look at the math. Doubling the load on an ebike is a big number exponential multiplier compared to the car example which is a fraction of who gives a damn. (New math results may differ slightly.) We are tooling along a long boring uphill grade and I say: “look down and tell me how many amps you are pulling”. “Twenty five” he says. That is the Ludi maxed out. “How about you” he asked innocently. But it isn't innocent because it puts me in the awkward situation of telling my best friend how fat he really is. “A little less than half that.” Short pause and: “Does that mean I can only go half as far?” he questions with the kind of range anxiety known only to those who are below their starting point. “Sounds like a you problem, but interesting math, show your work for extra credit.”

      This works both ways. The best thing about an ebike is that it weighs less than me. I can throw it around. Now, can my athletic 300 pound friend throw an 80 pound Apex further than I can throw my 55 pound enduro ebike? He can bench press twice what I can, friggin' UPS driver, so my bet is on him and the 80 pound bike. At first it sounds as silly as the grinding the rail test, but think how often you put it on the car. The big thing for me is how often I hike and bike, over the fallen tree, up the short sand hill, etc.

      It is so much harder to think of a bike for someone else than my usual self centered first world concerns I have about my quiver. I certainly would not do this for money. What is the shock like at 300 pounds? What if I load it up with 300 pound rider, camping gear and a trailer with seventy pounds of dear meat? With the right tires I bet this could be a better hunting rig than the two fat bikes advertised as hunting rigs. Is this the use they meant by best, ultimate, apex?

      Because I am riding for exercise mostly and not for pleasure as much I don't use the pedal assist too much. After a cycling session at the oval track while I am relaxing and cooling down I do turn on the pedal assist and it is nice. It is configurable with the settings. For steeper hills I just use throttle and don't engage the pedal assist. As far as the torque sensing goes, so far I haven't noticed any huge difference between the pedal assist on your bike and the pedal assist on the Apex. Could be that I use it so little, so now that you have called my attention to it I will play with it today and see if I can derive an orgasmic, post-pedaling urge for a cigarette.

      I don't understand your issues with the fat tires on the FS 3000, I did on rare occasions feel the gyro effect you are referring to but not in a seriously negative way. And I never, ever went down on the FS 3000. One thing you need to keep in mind with the Body Float is that I was exceeding the upper limit of the springs' capacities so if I was seated and not using my legs to lighten the load on the Body Float it was pretty much bottomed out. Not so with the Rock Shox on the Apex - hence the silky smooth ride.

      Last night I just made some significant changes to the shocks on the Apex, I suggest that if you haven't already you do the same on the FS 3000. Remember, that was set up for my size and weight. I am expecting to improve the ride/control even more on the Apex as I get the suspension fully dialed in for damping and rebound. That's another point, there is no damping or rebound control with the Body Float, it does however absorb bumps nicely.

      I believe you might be able to control some of the "super ball" effects you are experiencing on the 3000 with adjustments to the Bluto and tire pressure. I think you might have had that spill in the parking lot whilst test riding my bike because the fork was (and maybe still is?) set up for my size/weight and personal ride preferences. There are a wide range of adjustments that can be made in terms of sag, damping and rebound on the Bluto that will make a quite noticeable difference in the ride and control of the bike. Combine adjustments to the Bluto with tire pressure adjustment and you may potentially eliminate the "super ball" experience.

      What do you mean "Robo wisely wouldn't tell me where he lives..." you wanted me to share some of the driving by delivering the bike to Lancaster LOL. I get it, you are saying that I would rather you didn't test ride my Apex. You're right! LOL But I will meet you at the city limits and provide you with an escort to a location near the L.A. airport where I believe we can arrange for you to have a test ride on an Apex!

      Comment


      • xcnick
        xcnick commented
        Editing a comment
        Sorry, was talking about Robo's old bike: the 3000 with no rear suspension that I now ride. However Apex suspension may not be right for jumping off picnic tables either, but besides the smoother safer ride I would love to see it hook up on a dirt hill climb.

        I am aware it was never thought of a the apex of hill climbing hunting machines, but as I stare at it I think it will work for my friend better than the hardtails in camo sold as hunting bikes. The question for me is does it have enough suspension to keep from bouncing all the way up. The hardtail 3000 with Lou has more traction that anyone can even imagine, but it will get to bouncing. You can stand up and make your brain and legs act like the worlds most expensive Baja 1000 shock resulting in "Oh my God, I can't believe I just went up that!" However I can climb my full suspension enduro fully loaded, pulling a trailer, sitting down, and smoking a cigarette simply because the shock is doing its job keeping the tire on the ground. Hoping Apex suspension, traction, is in the middle somewhere.

        I think the Surly for the Apex size wheel is called a Nate if anyone wants to give it a try and report back. HIllclimbing can really put a smile on your face. To give you an idea, I can climb the fat bike up more things than my Suzuki DRZ400. And you do it slowly in control like it was nothing instead of roosting and squirming one inch from crashing. If anyone is watching, approach like you are a 250 watt hub motor, then without speeding up continue up. It looks like you are defying gravity. (I need a life)

      • JPLabs
        JPLabs commented
        Editing a comment
        Ok, I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying.

        I do love to 'tractor' up hills, slowly! Picking a smooth line like trials riding, not skipping and bouncing over roots. Using torque and traction, sitting, going a few mph, with pretty relaxed cadence. It looks quite impossible, from a distance, but there I go.

      • xcnick
        xcnick commented
        Editing a comment
        You and I have to lay down the challenge who claim PAS does less erosion. Bring your Haibike to my mountain and let's test! However it is so much more than that. It crosses that threshold into a whole nother sport.

        So road dirt in the morning yesterday. Not the fat bike, but dirt is perfect, enduro with Dirty Dan mud tires. Going up my best hill. Took Kim and his SurRons here and it went up, but roosting like a dirt bike. Don't get me wrong, love the single speed. The only way to do an electric motor.

        Where was I? Oh, yea, just going up slowly at the dogs walking pace for a forty degree hill, so slow it is hard to keep balance with my chest laying on the bars. We came across a lady and her two dogs and the thing that struck me was how she had no idea what a feet this hill climb was. It looked so easy she thought some Alibaba 250 watt bike could do it. I do my best to answer: will you build one for me. "Not for love or money!" (sex maybe, she was hot) "But call Paxtana at Luna, he can help."
        Last edited by xcnick; 04-15-2018, 09:13 AM.

      Can some of the others who have took delivery of the apex share their thoughts/post some pics please...
      Would just like to hear some final thoughts before dropping 7k

      Comment


      • FatMo
        FatMo commented
        Editing a comment
        For me the jury's still out until I get a few hundred miles on it.

        Initial impressions; it's pretty f'n awesome. I read that gangly giants review on this site and was a little worried about taking it on the trails but I've had one good ride on an old washed out forest road and the Apex ate it up.

        The biggest thing for me is how much it DOESN'T feel like an electric bike. It just feels like I'm superman, I still come home tired after a ride because I'm actually pumping away the whole time instead of just spinning my cranks. I have a KHS1000 and PAS on it is either slow and I'm getting a work out or fast and I'm just free wheeling the cranks and the motor is putting in all the work. Sometimes there's a bit of motor after you stop peddling but for the most part it's a seem less application of power. Its an awesome feeling and quite addicting.

        This is my first full suspension bike so I don't have anything to compare to, so take this with a grain of salt. The suspension does what it is supposed to. Keeps the rear wheel on the ground and keeps my ass comfy. Definitely get a different seat though because the carbon seat is like riding with a brick between your legs. I travel at a MUCH higher speed on the Apex vs. the KHS because of the suspension. The bike displays more control on all surfaces but really shines on the rougher stuff. A trail that would shake the teeth out of my head at 15 mph on the KHS, is giggles and more speed on the Apex.

        Top speed can be a bit of an issue. I don't know if their still advertised as a 40mph bike but I never got there. I am 220lbs though so obviously the lighter you are the better the bike will preform. If your criteria require 35mph or better the Apex might not do it for you.

        The battery is ridiculous. Haven't done any actual mileage test but I notice that I have a higher voltage on the Apex then my GF does on the KHS after a ride. The KHS has a 52v 17.5ah vs the 52v 28ah on the Apex. But I weigh 80lbs more than her and she never uses the throttle, I do use the throttle :-)

        So far I've been happy with my purchase. I wish it cost less but I'd still buy another Apex rather than a KHS1000 (which is still an awesome bike).

        I'll write some more about it when I pass my first 100 miles.

      Also I see the lunar fat forks sold separately but not the carbon version. Are the carbon versions exclusively for the apex?

      Comment


        Thank you for the detailed review.
        Would it be possible to share some pictures?

        Comment


          Can I get on a waiting list for one of the new controllers for the Sur-Ron? I saw the new video where the dual-controller Sur-Ron was able to beat the Zero FX to about 50 mph - looked to have the stock rear sprocket. While speed is great, I would really like more torque. Thanks. I have had my Sur-Ron for over a month and really like it.

          Comment


            I read some Facebook reviews that some people were having issues with the Luna carbon fat forks. did anybody select the Luna carbon forks for the apex that can share their experience ?

            Comment

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