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3 speed switch (Cyclone3000) How does it work?

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    3 speed switch (Cyclone3000) How does it work?



    Are these fast and low RPMs set by the controller? And just how fast are they? Are they a cruse control? Or an under-drive and an over-drive? By triming or multiplying the voltage? If so by what percentage?

    I just bought a 52volt battery pack. And I want to keep it under 20mph and possibly even under 15mph. I just want to use my cycletruck for slow commuting and steep hill climbing with cargo.

    So how does it work? Lower the voltage (with the switch) and increase the amperage (with the accellerator) for hill climbing? And the higher voltage over-drive for crusing to save fuel? (If I don't use it to go faster)

    The switch needs to be a 3 position "on/off/on" single pole, right?
    Last edited by jawnn; 09-16-2018, 11:17 AM.

    #2
    From what I've gleened from the internet...

    Originally posted by "John in CR" post_id=1091609 time=1440931323 user_id=6408

    A 3 speed switch does not necessarily limit power. It simply applies a percentage reduction to the throttle voltage. While it does lower power, it's more of an indirect result.
    If it doesn't get you in the range you desire, check out mod #2 in my Hall throttle thread... HERE.


    And yes to your last question as illustrated by Seb's excellent wiring diagram...


    Click image for larger version

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    Regards,
    T.C.
    See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

    Comment


      #3
      Also, if you choose the Bluetooth Cyclone controller, you can set the parameters for the three-speed switch, in percentage of under-speed (for the low-speed setting), and in percentage of over-speed (for the high-speed setting). The middle setting is your motor's normal performance range.

      Basically, if you set it to "energy" mode (low-speed), it'll lower the motor's top RPM to whatever percentage you have selected. If you set it to "normal" it's your regular RPM range, and if you set it to the high-position, it'll allow your motor to "overspeed" to whatever percentage you have selected (devouring your battery at an awesome rate, in exchange for an increase in top speed).

      What this also does, is affect throttle behavior. The throttle's range is divided across a narrower band of RPM in the low-speed mode, so it gives you sort-of a fine-tune throttle; while in the high-speed mode, the throttle is much more sensitive.

      Worth noting here, is that the Cyclone doesn't really sense your speed in any way, just how fast the motor itself is turning. If you use any gears at all, the speed-calibration on the Bluetooth controller will only be accurate in whichever gear you used for calibration.

      Basically, this means in order to get the precise speed-ranges you desire, you may need to do some trial-and-error, adjust, test, adjust, re-test, etc.

      If you do use gears (as most of us do), then you'll find yourself able to do a lot of things with your speed, speed-ranges, etc. If you want to climb very steep hills, with heavy loads, be sure you have very solid components, and brakes that are as capable as your Cyclone!

      As far as "cruise control" goes, there's a way to set that to operate manually or automatically.

      Automatic cruise control engages after you hold the throttle steady for about eight seconds. Then, it "holds" your selected throttle position, until you either activate the brakes (assuming e-brake cut-off switches), or if you activate the throttle again. Then, it cancels.

      I do not have any experience with using or wiring up the "manual" cruise-control. The automatic cruise-control requires no extra wires or buttons, so I saw no reason to further clutter the handlebars, when all it would do is just complicate the operation!

      Best of luck to you with your project!

      Take care,

      Tklop
      Last edited by tklop; 09-19-2018, 03:00 AM.

      Comment


      • tklop
        tklop commented
        Editing a comment
        Since my original reply, I have experimented with "Manual Cruise Control" on the 40A and 60A Bluetooth Cyclone Controllers:

        Only one "Cruise Control" will work at a time. Even if both "Auto" cruise and "Man" cruise are "On" --within the Bluetooth App--only the "Manual" cruise will work. To get the "Auto" Cruise-Control to work, "Man" Cruise-Control needs to be turned "Off" (in the app).

        The Manual Cruise Control funtions via a momentary button, and simply "locks" whatever throttle-setting you've got (same as what the auto-cruise does, only instantly--without the eight-second delay).

        It's a one-button system; so there's no "Accel-Set" or "Coast/Set" functions. Again--it isn't speed-based anyway, just a "throttle-lock"--in other words, if you set the cruise-control while coasting, it'll just let you keep right on coasting to a stop. If you set it on level-ground, and then go down a hill, the motor will hold it's RPM speed--even as the bike accelerates beyond your "Set" speed-- it doesn't go to "idle" like in a car.

        (Side note: I'm using 40A Cyclone BT controllers to power 1500W DD motors--which had me thinking: It'd be really cool, if a controller could maintain "Cruise-Control" speed-settings even when going downhill via regenerative-braking--and that doesn't seem like it should be an impossibly difficult thing to figure out--but I digress).

        The button also doesn't "cancel" Cruise-Control; pressing the button a second-time just seems to set the cruise to your new speed instead. To cancel, same as with auto-cruise, activate the throttle, or brakes (assuming e-bike brake-handles).
        Last edited by tklop; 03-06-2020, 12:30 AM.

      #4
      If the switch affects the rpm without effecting the voltage to be lower, I think I should just leave off the over-drive wire. I am building a single speed reduced gear. But it still sounds like it will be good for keeping the speed down even if doesn't deliver more torque thrust.

      We figured out that about 533rpm at the motor's planitary gear's output will do about 13mph at about 1300 watts. But then I had to buy a 52volt battery in place of the 48v I planed for. Just becasue Luna was out of every thing else. So I may use an even lower gear. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...85437#p1383245

      I was thinking about using hydroulic brake on the rear but then the ebrake cut-off levers I got would not be usable.

      What do they mean by “LOW” brake? Is that not a brake lever with shorting switch?


      Comment


        #5
        Originally posted by jawnn View Post

        What do they mean by “LOW” brake? Is that not a brake lever with shorting switch?

        Electronic speed controllers may use up to three different types of brake signal inputs to deactivate power to the motor. Low... refers to using a 5vdc or less electronic signal and shorting it to ground with the brake actuation switch. (yes to your question) High... refers to a 12 vdc signal being provided to the proper pin by ether the brake switch, or perhaps by tapping into a 12vdc brake light power line. And a brake analog signal which uses a 5vdc supply which is varied in voltage depending on the brake lever position by use of a hall sensor or other means. This allows for variable regeneration.
        Last edited by Tommycat; 09-19-2018, 05:52 AM.
        See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

        Comment


          #6
          Three speed switch wiring??

          Which one is the slow RPM? Is it the blue with white stripe?

          And can anyone tell me what wattage the low rpm will limit to? I need 1300w to climb a 9%g hill with cargo.

          Comment


            #7
            Wattage is not limited with this switch in any way at all.

            The only thing this switch does is change the available operational RPM range of the motor. This range can be adjusted, if you have the Bluetooth Cyclone controller. I personally almost never use the high-speed position on the switch. Technically, the amount of over-speed can be turned to zero if you are worried about accidental activation.

            By changing other settings within the app, (the Bluetooth Cyclone controller app), you can indeed affect the amperage delivered by the controller. But technically speaking, Cyclone's controllers don't really care about watts; because they're built to operate at multiple voltages. Because Volts x Amps = Watts, a 36V system, pulling 60A max, will deliver 2160 Watts; a 72V system, pulling 60A max, will deliver 4320 Watts (simple math not accounting for any losses).

            Don't want the Bluetooth Cyclone Controller? Shell out more dough (many times the difference in price), and add a Cycle Analyst to the stock Cyclone Controller. I've never used one of those. But--if you want access to the adjustments that come standard with the Bluetooth Cyclone controller, I think the Cycle Analyst can give you those--and probably many more (for all I know).

            Personally, I like the Bluetooth Cyclone Controller. I never have to open the app, unless I want to change some settings. So, I just set it--and forget it. I have a Bluetooth app for my BMS--which gives me real-time amperage-draw, my current rate of speed, and estimated remaining range from it's main "dashboard" screen--and I do leave that open on my Android device often when I'm riding (my phone is firmly attached to the handlebars). But other times, I just run "dashboard-free". Switch it on--and off I go--in total darkness, if I like!

            As far as which color wires go where, I know I have seen two different wiring diagrams, both used different color schemes. And, since I'm not willing to take my working 3-speed switch apart, just to answer your question--I'm afraid I cannot tell you with authority what the "real-world" item's specific wire-colors are.

            I am sorry about that. But maybe somebody can crack open a busted one and give you that exact info!

            Honestly, I find the stock 3-speed switch clunky. In addition to the "three-speed" function switch (actually designed for turn-signal activation) it also has a "momentary" button (with a horn-symbol on it), and a SPST switch (with a headlight-symbol on it). So, it's a 3-in-one kind of thing. And it's pretty bulky. Still, the other switch-functions can be handy. Just like "re-purposing" the turn-signal-switch to act as a three-speed-switch, the other two switches may be used for whatever you like. If I ever put a horn on the bike, I may make use of the momentary switch--for its original purpose--but for now I leave it unused. However, I did set the "headlight" switch to control the PAS ON/OFF function--before I realized that I don't like the PAS at all... So, I never use that switch either. Really, I could use a smaller single-purpose switch, and I expect I'll change to that eventually.

            Technically, any 3-position SPDT should be able to be used (that would be the on-off-on kind of switch).

            Best of luck to you!

            Take care,

            Tklop
            Last edited by tklop; 09-25-2018, 03:37 AM. Reason: for clarity

            Comment


            • jawnn
              jawnn commented
              Editing a comment
              well it does sound like it is the perfect solution to the legal speed limit problem. So I will have to set it up with a single throw witch and test it out. Then report back here just incase someone else wants to know about it.

            #8
            How do I know if I got the right kind of brake levers? They look simple enough, but should I test if the switch in levers connects or disconnects?


            Originally posted by Tommycat View Post


            Electronic speed controllers may use up to three different types of brake signal inputs to deactivate power to the motor. Low... refers to using a 5vdc or less electronic signal and shorting it to ground with the brake actuation switch. (yes to your question) High... refers to a 12 vdc signal being provided to the proper pin by ether the brake switch, or perhaps by tapping into a 12vdc brake light power line. And a brake analog signal which uses a 5vdc supply which is varied in voltage depending on the brake lever position by use of a hall sensor or other means. This allows for variable regeneration.

            Comment


              #9
              Originally posted by jawnn View Post
              How do I know if I got the right kind of brake levers? They look simple enough, but should I test if the switch in levers connects or disconnects?
              You can easily check the switches by measuring resistance if you desire. Open contacts when not braking, closed contacts when actuating brakes...
              But being so straight forward you could just hook them up, and check for correct operation. Will not damage anything if switches are wrong... Motor runs no brake, motor off with ether brake enabled. Of course variable brakes are different.
              See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

              Comment


                #10
                best suggestion I can think of for OP, is a GPS based speed limiter. this way it matters not what gear your in, the limiter circuit will back off the power when it runs up into the setpoint. on a semi related topic I would like an accurate ammeter to monitor my current draw from the battery, cause it serves double duty as a load sensor. part of what I struggle with while using my motor is not powering it while the bike is free wheeling, so far I do this by periodically backing out of the power to see if the bike decelerates.

                Comment


                  #11
                  Does anyone know if leaving the controller switched to high speed mode lowers the overall efficiency? So if you're always doing 30mph max at normal mode then put to "high" and continue to stay at 30mph max, is there any more battery drain?

                  Comment


                  • tklop
                    tklop commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I believe it is likely you'd see a drop in efficiency, using the High Speed Mode--but I haven't got any solid test-data or anything to back that up--so I can't say for 100% certainty.

                    You'd use less throttle for the same end-speed too, in High Speed Mode... So maybe it'd work out to the same efficiency after all--just with a more sensitive "twitchy" throttle. But I have the feeling that yes--you would see a drop in efficiency.

                    Best of luck!

                    tklop

                  #12
                  Thanks. Is there a way with the Bluetooth app to set it to High without jumpering the high connection or using a switch?

                  Seems like High is allowing the max rpm the motor can put out. Normal is 80% of that max rpm.

                  I want 100% available at all times and will control my speed through the throttle only. I'm used to a very sensitive throttle and the Domino throttle setup I have with it on normal is much less sensitive so I'm good with it being "20%" more sensitive. Probably...

                  To get that do I need to jump the high connection and set something on the bluetooth app? Or just jumper, or just Bluetooth app?

                  Comment


                  • tklop
                    tklop commented
                    Editing a comment
                    My understanding (from Paco--at Cyclone Taiwan--the motors' vendors) is that the motors normal rated maximum-speed is what the controller's "Normal" mode is actually set to. So, "Normal" isn't limiting you to 80% RPM as you're implying--so much as the "High Speed Mode" is allowing you to overspeed the motor--push it 20% past the red-line, so-to-speak.

                    You can adjust the amount of "overspeed" available to you, from within the Bluetooth app. And yes--absolutely--if you don't want to use those lower two speed-settings at all, you could indeed just jumper it to stay in high-speed mode.

                    As I said before--this may work out just fine--but I'm not certain. Personally, I think I'd choose otherwise.

                    The Cyclone--no matter which version you have--will easily propel you plenty fast in its "Normal" mode--it's only a matter of selecting appropriate gearing for your machine. The Cyclone can bust drivetrain parts in "Normal" mode--hell, it can in "Low-Speed Mode" if you're really trying to bust things. Forty, fifty miles-per-hour isn't impossible--in "Normal" speed mode. Seems if you set everything up that way--in "Normal Mode" --where the motor is happy running sustained at WOT (Wide Open Throttle)---shouldn't that be enough? And then--you'll still have "High-Speed Mode" on-tap for volcano-escaping speed or the like--and since you'll only use that mode ever so briefly, it won't cause much--if any harm at all...

                    Own a car? Can you drive it at maximum-speed, with full-throttle all day long? No. No you cannot. No matter what you drive--it will overheat, and be destroyed by such operation--as we all know--and I don't think any of us would be stupid enough to destroy our own vehicle in such a way. Perhaps such wisdom might be applied to your project.

                    As I said, I don't have any solid measurements and data to share--and maybe it'd all come out the same in the end--I'm not sure.

                    But from what I have observed, the amperage-consumption immediately jumps when I enter "High-Speed Mode"---by about 20A. Perhaps the spike in amperage is needed to overcome the back EMF--to allow that slight "overspeed" operation--that's only a guess--I'm not really an expert on the theoreticals. Your own experimentation, or that of others, may be able to confirm this--or provide more details. In any case, this sharp spike in amperage-consumption indicates (to me) that the High Speed Mode is probably intended for brief bursts of usage, rather than sustained WOT abuse; and I assume that the High-Speed-Mode will also likely generate a lot of heat in both my controller and motor if I leave it there for too long.

                    On the other hand, there are many people who do like to try to push their projects to the point of destruction. If you're one of them, and you've got lots of disposable income to throw away as you fry component after component--have at it! Many here--including myself--will be interested to learn about your experiments and results--and certainly all the various vendors out there can use all the extra dough you've got!

                    Best of luck!

                    tklop

                    [edit--added]

                    Also--I actually find the "Low-Speed" mode handy too when operating at lower speeds, and where I want finer throttle-control. Examples where you really do not want a twitchy throttle are in heavy traffic--esp. pedestrian traffic; or when off-road in difficult terrain (like sand/mud or when hopping rocks/logs/etc).

                    You may be surprised what turns out to be useful to you as time goes on--so don't be too quick to "throw away" viable control-options for your machine. Any "On / Off / On" switch can be used--you don't have to stick with that clunky combi-switch. Go ahead--hook one up--even if you think you'll never use it. Hide it someplace where it won't annoy you--under your seat even--whatever works. But then one fine day, when you suprise yourself by realizing that yes indeed you really do find yourself wanting another "mode" to choose from--you'll still have all the options.
                    Last edited by tklop; 03-03-2020, 10:20 AM.

                  #13
                  I like all your points. Makes me want the 3 speed switch so I can put it on high only on the rare occasion where I want to play. The top speed on normal is more than I need. I like to have the option. So maybe the switch is the way to go. Do you have any recommendations other than the cheap one Cyclone sells?

                  Comment


                  • tklop
                    tklop commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I think of "High-Speed Mode" sort-of as a "For Demonstration Purposes Only" mode... That is to say, so far, I've only used it for showing-off! No--I'm not proud of acting that way--I am aware that it's childish. But it would be even more childish to lie--and try to pretend there's another justification for it!

                    My tri-motor bakfiets is a beast of a machine--and I do enjoy surprising people with its eye-popping performance--but I can do that in "Normal" mode just fine!

                    So--honestly, I rarely use "High Speed Mode" at all. I don't need to race all those motor-scooters--so I'm saving it for the volcanoes.

                    Which switch? Gosh--my main thing--is looking for what's going to be as weatherproof as possible!

                    I've built myself a little waterproof console to sit in the center of my handlebars--with waterproof switches for all the Cyclone's controls (and some extras--because I've got three motors, two throttles, other stuff going on). Switches for PAS On/Off, Speed Limiter On/Off, Low-Speed/Normal/High-Speed switch, Reverse Switch, Throttle-Link On/Off, Headlights On/Off, and Cruise Control Set (momentary)...

                    Weatherproof...

                    [my standard rant follows]

                    Any component designed for use on a bicycle should be able to withstand long-term installation on a rental jet-ski----any less weatherproofing is inadequate... However, most stuff for e-bikes is about as weather-resistant as a typical flat-screen TV; don't even think about that garden-hose.

                    Apart from the custom machines and components available from Luna Cycle, there's nothing else weatherproof/water-resistant out there on the market (at this time). Obviously, that's totally insane, but it's the truth. Not even Stromer--whose underpowered and underperforming e-bikes cost as much as cars--would dream of investing any of their insane profit-margins on marginally-effective weatherproofing. Luna Cycle are heroes in this regard, while the rest of the industry is truly absent. It's sad.

                    Truth is, there's a lot of waterproof/weatherproof components available out there in the world--developed using techniques in practice for a century. It's pure laziness--nobody needs to "reinvent the wheel" --products found in the Motorcycle/Automotive/RV/Marine/Aerospace market have been waterproof for decades. Luckily, we e-bikers can take advantage of these long-existing products where appropriate--for switches, connectors, lights, etc.

                    For the rest? Well, sadly, Luna Cycle cannot possibly custom-manufacture every single product and component we need--so many (if not all of us) wind up with non-weatherproof junk on our projects; we've just no other product-choices sometimes. But even then, it's not the end of the world. This industry-wide failure to recognize that bicycles aren't "for indoor use only", just means we end-users have to waterproof our own controllers, throttles, e-bike brake-handles, batteries, and more. Fortunately, here in this forum and others like it--there's a lot of good advice in terms of end-user water/weatherproofing options and techniques. We don't take it lying down--heck no! We're strong--we adapt, we overcome!

                    [rant over]

                    So--(ahem)... Obviously--if possible--try to see if you can find a weatherproof one...

                    But really--just any three-way switch will do (on - off - on) That's all the original is--just a re-purposed turn-signal / horn / headlight switch from a scootmobile--where the turn-signal portion is used for your three-speed selector.
                    Last edited by tklop; 03-06-2020, 12:16 AM.

                  #14
                  Oh the desire for the boost is 100% for showing off. Thanks for the insight. Will look for a waterproof 3 Pos switch.
                  The only settings I've changed on the app is setting the batter current limit and phase current limit to 100%. Are there any setting so should or should not mess with?

                  Comment


                  • tklop
                    tklop commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I'd not mess with things like phase-angle--or any other settings specific to your particular combination of motor/controller designs... But even if you "screw up" some settings--and it stops working--you should be able to get back to starting over via the "Factory Settings Reset" option (whatever that's called).

                  #15
                  I guess my main question is, what is overspeed? On off then speed ratio and low speed ratio?

                  Last edited by jamesavery22; 03-03-2020, 05:38 PM.

                  Comment


                  • tklop
                    tklop commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I don't have my machine and its controllers' apps open in front of me...

                    But that looks like the one for your 3-speed switch. If you turn it to "Off" in the app--then it just deactivates your "High Speed" mode; you put the switch in the "High Speed" position--and it'll just stay in "Normal" mode--it won't do anything. If you want "Overspeed" you'll want that turned "On". "Overspeed" is your "High Speed Mode" --and the amount of overspeed is adjusted there--expressed in percentages of overspeed above your "Normal" max RPM. Same applies to that "low speed ratio"--set, as a fractional percentage of your "Normal" max RPM. The "Speed Limiter" can also be set the same way--as a fraction of your "Normal" max RPM--but when used in combination with the three-speed switch--the Speed Limiter's effect "stacks".

                    Experimentation is the best thing I can suggest with the various settings.

                    Because each of our machines are unique, just like each or our own preferences are, it's going to be difficult to recommend anything specific. After all, I might enjoy settings that you'd hate--or vice-versa.

                    Many of the controller's settings have an affect on other settings too--just like how the Speed Limiter "stacks" its effects on top of the 3-Speed Switch's effects--so I suggest you try changing things systematically, taking notes of your combinations and changes--so you can easily back out, and undo anything you don't like.

                    Also--don't just test your settings with your wheels in the air--get on the bike, and see how it behaves under load. Some features don't behave the same with wheels-up--you'll want to feel those changes from on the saddle.

                    Be patient, and I'm sure you'll find some settings you like... Maybe you'll figure out a few different combinations--based on where you're riding (maybe come up with a good on-road config, off-road config, max-range config, max speed config, etc.)

                    Best of luck!
                    Last edited by tklop; 03-06-2020, 12:20 AM.
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