To Build a Better Ruffian, I need YOUR HELP

[Defjr333]

This will be my home page for everything involved in this build:
I want to re-create this bike, but with a better drive than the BLAASCHHH. Frame, Tank, and all the components can be purchased from Ruff-cycles for aprox $1100. Thats with a US/BMX bottom bracket instead of the Bosch mount. This will be my 2nd eBike, but I have SO MUCH MORE TO LEARN for this one. My 1st was a simple BBSHD install on a big box store cruiser frame. Easy. But this guy is gonna be different. So, I am HOPING that the community here can help me plan the components and get ready for the install of this guy. I have some high priority wants for it, but could be open to suggestions on changes to plans, if merited.

The bike build itself is pretty straightforward. The drive system is where I am looking for assistance. I would like to use a QS205 in EACH wheel. Controllers and all electronics in tank. Battery packs in leather paniers. I want as much wiring hidden and use of phone for display(like current bike). This will also be my first attempt at hydraulic disk brakes as well.

There are areas I do not have enough knowledge or experience with. But I think with your guys help, this will turn out 10 times better than Ruff-Cycles ebike for half the price. I dont know where the $6000 cost in this is........

[Defjr333]

RUFFIAN FRAME PARTS LIST

Frame:
Bassman Classic in Steel $379.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-fr...n-classic.html
or
Bassman Classic in AL $459.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-fr...n-classic.html

Tank:
Bassman Tank in Steel $229.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-fr...man-steel.html

Fenders:
Fender Set Short Black $32.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-cy...ort-black.html

Rims:
26" x 65mm Matte Slvr $59.95ea http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-cy...mm-silver.html

Front Fork:
Straight Fork Dbl Down $139.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-cy...rk-chrome.html

Stem:
Project 346 1 1/8 shorty $79.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-cy...-polished.html

Headset:
Headset Ahead 1 1/8 $14.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-cy...ead-1-1-8.html

Handlebar:
Z-Dragbar $86.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-cy...le-bar-cp.html

Seat:
Diamond Brown $69.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-cy...dle-brown.html

Seat Post:
Seat Post T $22.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-cy...seat-post.html

Chain Guard:
Chainguard $22.95 http://store.ruff-cycles.com/ruff-cy...man-black.html

[Defjr333]

So thats the easy part. Hear is where I need all of you to start chiming in. My thought was to use a QS273 on one wheel. But, now I wonder why not go with dual QS205s? More balanced, and wont need to send so much power to one drive, split it up to 2?! Yes that means more wires, connectors, controller, etc........but it doesnt look like it will be THAT much more expensive. While making it MUCH more reliable and longer life. So all you DD Hub motor guys, come give me some advice, critique, warning, anything will help. Like my daddy once told me "I dont even know what I dont know". That quote is apt for this project. As i am sure you can tell, I have read enough to be dangerous, but still not know what the hell Im talking about!!! Some Questions:
Is the QS205 the best choice for this bike?
Does Luna sell anything that would be comperable?
Should I just throw my BBSHD on it with a Grin Phaserunner and bigger battery?
Front and rear drop outs are listed as 100 and 135mm respectively. I laced and trued my current wheels myself. I want to learn as much as possible. What rims, tires, etc you all recommend?
Thank you all in advance
Doug

[Defjr333]

Now to challenge the controller guys. Ant way to run both motors of one controller? Even at lower amp/ wattage? What controllers would be recommended? What voltage to run system on? I am on an open slate as I hope to be able to set a "legal" limit if used on public road. But able to change to fairly reasonable range for these motors(total output in highest mode aprox 6k watts. or 3k watt per motor). Ways to switch between motors(one or other or both)? If so ways to control amount delivered to each possible?
Sorry for the rambling nature of this post. I am obviously throwing out wild a$$ ideas, hoping for a brilliant response. Throttle is a must. PAS is a high preference. High reliability is a must. I dont want to spend unreasonable amounts of money here. Im not wealthy by any stretch. But I also am not going to use anything known to be cheap junk. My goal is to see what can be built for 50-80% of the "retail" version of these. Specd out how i want it would be $6600 their price. That is with a 250-500 watt Bosch mid-drive!!! I dont want to bash them. They make beautiful bikes. They are in Germany so the laws are strickter, but they have US stores..... To cater to an upscale market with that price, they gonna need more than that drive system. I had the chance to test ride one. Flawless...........IF it didnt have that motor:-(
So help me out here on the controller side here guys.

[toro1978]

I think the Ruffian is actually built on a Bassman frame (only with a motor mount and not a regular BB) and not on a Dean.

6000$ - well, parts, work hours (putting it together + paint + covering firm running costs ) + profit. Still terribly overpriced.

[Defjr333]

Thanks for catching that Toro. I couldnt tell 100% as pics of the Ruffian show only 1 top bar. The Dean has only one, while the Bassman has 2. BUT Looking at the dropouts and angles of the back, it DOES appear to be based on a Bassman! Of course Ruff Cycles will NOT reply to my email attempts asking that exact question...... I have updated the parts list to reflect the proper frame. Thanks again!!!
But that does go to show what can be built for their "price". If the components for the bike minus motors/ batteries are $2k, that is a lot of cash to make this thing a beast, and still be under the retail on a "real" Ruffian, while sporting 20 times the power!

[Defjr333]

Ruff-Cycles finally replied (email their US facility in Cleveland. GERMANY DOES NOT REPLY). But I did get confirmation the Bassman frame is the proper one to use. I chose to go with the Steel over the Aluminum for longevity, better ride, and only a couple pounds difference. So I have ordered the Frame, Chainguard, Fenders, Front Fork, and 2 26" x 65mm rims. These are all the parts needing to be painted. Ruff-cycles are adding disk brake mount to frame for rear. Aprox delivery: 10-15 business days. Once that arrives, I will do a mock up to be sure it is all correct, the send it to paint.
$925.65 Plus $140 shipping.
Moving Faster than I expected. If I dont get some plans hammered down for the drive system, this thing may get a BBSHD thrown on it while I decide on the rest.

[toro1978]

You could actually see the second tube under the tank on that pic. I also think the downtube of the Dean is a bit shorter between the chainstays and the curve than the Bassman. I would suggest You reinforce the BB plate, because a few guys on the german forum complained about cracks. It doesn't look like much work, just a plate or two in addition to the original should be more than enough.
Tbh some of this stuff is terribly overpriced just because of the cool factor - 80$ for a stem or handlebars, give me a break.
Still, first lesson of economics - a things costs as much as anyone is prepared to pay for it and I know You want a replica, so in Your case it is worth it. :)

[Defjr333]

Thanks for the heads up on that frame "weak spot". Will have to figure out a way to reinforce it. Im not sure I could fault that bike tho.....look at all the rust! I would break down too...... And yes, much of the parts from ruff-cycles is overpriced. I will not be ordering everything from them. I will be getting the frame, tank, fenders, rims, and chain guard from them(ordered yesterday). I think I can find better quality for less money on many of the other parts. Appreciate the little insights Toro!

[toro1978]

I know only about two cases and they must have sold thousands of frames, so I wouldn't worry too much. Now that I think about it with an electric motor (mid-drive or hub - doesn't matter) the pressure You apply to the cranks is way less, so way less stress on the BB :)

[JPLabs]

Chain tension is reacted by the BB structure, and that's more severe with a motor. Pedal induced cyclic loads are lower with a motor, but peak loads are higher. So I'm not confident an ebike application means this is less subject to cracking or bending. I think motorizing it actually creates a more severe loadcase.

[Defjr333]

While it will eventually have hub motors, I will probably throw the BBSHD on it at first while getting the new system planned/ built, not to mention paid for. Unless I find a buyer for my blue cruiser the BBSHD is currently on. If that happens The new bike will go straight to DD Hub motors. Will have to see how that and $ play out. Im surprised nobody has chimed in with any Hub motor or Controller insights, or warnings. Those two are what I need help finalizing most. Anywho, I shoulf have my frame, and most the parts that need paint between 22nd and 25th.
I hope to start posting pictures and videos of this build sometime around march 1st. I do have a few questions on that as well for those of you that use this forum a little more than I. Is there a way to create sub-directories under this thread? It would make it so much easier to be able to have a folder/ thread whatever to separate the stages. I want to have one for: Body work/Paint, Frame/tank/ parts installation, Motor/ Controller/ Battery installation, Accessories installation, and finally a Finished project with in use videos and specs etc. This would make it easier for anyone else to get to the portion of the build that most interests them. Why scroll thru 40 page thread of frame building, painting, etc, if you where just wanting to see the controller part.
Thanks again for the input Toro, and JPLabs. I hope to get more input and advice along the way.

[idearat]

My approach was to use the Porucho frame which arrived today. ( 6 days to get here from Germany, I was impressed ) I went with the aluminum, partly since their winter sale made it attractive. I wish I'd ordered the rims from them since 65mm, 36 spoke have proved impossible to find. I'm waiting on the BB adapter to arrive from Luna, so I haven't test fit the BBSHD with the frame. Crossing my fingers there. I'm hoping I can rotate so it sits inside the frame. I was pleased to see my existing battery will fit behind the seat tube
Lots to do and don't want to hijack the thread, but I was looking to see if anyone had gone down this path and you seem to be at least on a parallel one.

Adding a note here in case anyone ever references this post. While I ordered a BB adapter it turns out I didn't need one. The stock BB worked just fine with the BBSHD that was a 68-73mm version.

[Defjr333]

Nice start on that Parucho frame. I was not actually looking to build from frame up, but all the bikes I like the looks of are going for 3k and up. Of all the retail sold bikes I have seen in person, the Ruffian is a show stopper. But I am not willing to shell out $6000 on a bike with only a 250W motor. So I will just have to build a better version of what they sell myself. More than 10 times the power for hopefully around half the price. Since I have not attracted much input on the hub motors or controllers, it may take me a bit longer than I had hoped. I am having to do all the research from scratch. I had hoped some 6k-12k watt hub motor users/ builders would chime in to help me with a starting point for deciding those components. So, it looks as if this may wind up just getting my BBSHD transplanted to it. Maybe add the phaserunner or other controller at 72v or higher. Hopefully I get some good info and nail down the final components before that time arrives.
Idearat, throw up a link to your build. I may see an idea i could steal.......I mean admire:)

[idearat]

There won't be any pics for a while, the frame really just arrived hours ago. I'm pretty much stuck on mid-drive, so to start I'm going to move my BBSHD over. I'm having wheels built with a 90mm Sturmey-Archer drum brake in front, 5-speed IGH, also with a 90mm drum brake in the rear. I want to make sure everything works and fits first, so I'll build it with the raw aluminum to start. Once I've figured out handlebars and a box for the battery and electronics I'll break it back down to send things off to be painted or powder coated.