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Ruff Porucho / BBSHD build

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    #16
    Another question... where did you order the motor from?
    Thanks
    G

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      #17
      and another question ... which model IGH and front hub did you use
      I was tempted by the heavy duty 5 speed rear RXL-RD5 and the 90mm front drum XL-FD

      thanks for all the info...

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Carrotious View Post
        Another question... where did you order the motor from?
        Thanks
        G
        Got the motor from Luna Cycle. I had bought a BBS02 from them a little over 3 years ago, After a crash, the something in the motor was slipping, under power or pedaling. I was going to tear the motor apart but ended up getting the barebones BBSHD from Luna instead, I swapped it in, leaving the rest of the parts and wiring in place. I've been running the BBSHD on another bike for a couple of years before moving it to this project.

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          #19
          Originally posted by Carrotious View Post
          and another question ... which model IGH and front hub did you use
          I was tempted by the heavy duty 5 speed rear RXL-RD5 and the 90mm front drum XL-FD

          thanks for all the info...
          Those are the hubs I got. I wanted heavy duty and the big brakes. Most people suggest getting the 3 speed S-A hub, and that might turn out to be the better choice, but I wanted the wider range of the 5-speed. The only thing to keep in mind is that those hubs only come in 36-hole and matching rims are less common. I found them eventually, but it wasn't as easy as I'd expected.

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            #20
            Last night I got a few more things bolted on and actually rode the bike under electrical power for the first time. This was still a shakedown ride, and it was definitely needed. A few more things need to be sorted out:
            • The Porucho frame is an odd one, so my first two kickstand choices haven't worked. I might be able to make one work by cutting it shorter and grinding a new "foot"
            • The long frame means that the wheel speed sensor won't reach the rear wheel. I'll look for an extension online, otherwise it's only 3 wires and I'll just cut and extend it. I'm going to try using epoxy to put the magnet on the wheel rim since it's closer to the frame than the skinny wheel was.
            • I put the shifter on the lower top tube. The HBBC shifter (https://www.hbbcinc.com/product/hbbc...ifter-stealth/) doesn't quite fit it, so there's some modding to do there. Also this meant that the shifter cable is the only one I have that's too long and I'll need to shorten it. Waiting till most everything else is done so I know the final routing.
            • Rear brake cable still too short. It's usable. I will replace with a longer one when I've sorted the rest of the cable routing
            • I got the torque arm for the rear drum brake mounted temporarily. I want it to be sturdy, but not be too hard to remove the rear wheel.
            • I've got everything snugged down tight on the springer fork. Getting it dialed in, along with maybe some new bushings or washers for the bottom assembly will come later.
            • I bought brake sensors to attach to the cables for motor cutouts but haven't installed them. For the front brake I'll connect near the brake lever, for the rear I'll hook it up near the brake.
            • Throttle needs to be hooked up. I might go with just PAS to start and work on my "stealth throttle integrated into a bike bell" idea.
            Good things:
            • I hooked up the Eggrider display I bought before the winter rains and never put on the last bike. It takes up so little space I really like it. It has more info than the old display I had and talks to my phone via bluetooth as well. With the additional information on the screen, plus the option for logging to your phone this really seems like the display to have.
            • While I haven't done a high speed panic stop, I really like the drum brakes. Very smooth and completely silent. No sqeaking, rubbing or dragging sounds at all.
            • This is my first experience with fat tires. Without that rigid, pinging feeling from a smaller high-pressure tire it feels a little like I'm running a thinner tire wheel with too low of air pressure. That's something else I'll have to dial in and get used to, but it does feel nice. In just my up and down the block rides if feels a bit like going from an tiny, harsh riding sports car to a 70s Cadillac. You don't feel as connected to the road, but it's smooth.
            Bad thing:

            This is the biggest thing I have to sort out. When in low gear and low PAS setting it worked fine, but as I upped the PAS setting or started in a lower gear the chain slipped. Hard. I went back to the garage and tried two quick things:
            • Increased chain tension as much as I could. I rode again and little to no change. This is a long bike, so even with as much tension as I can put on the chain it sags some.
            • I thought the gap between the mighty mini 30t chain ring with the 1/8" chain and the side of the motor was too close. I had an install helper kit from Luna so I removed the chain ring and inserted another spacer. This also looked like it worked at first, but I think I was just being cautious. It still slipped under high torque.
            The chain line looks good. The narrow-wide teeth of the front chain ring are engaged deep in the chain, so I can't see it skipping there. It's hard to tell where it's happening while riding, but I'm going to with with it slipping at the rear. The chain and the rear hub are new, so I'm sure it's not due to wear. For now I'm going to go with not enough teeth being engaged. When you add in a little sag from the extra long chain it's just not able to handle the torque.
            I'll look into a bigger rear sprocket for the rear. I'm also considering a chain tensioner or idler that will bring the bottom of the chain up and wrap more around the rear sprocket. The way it is now I don't need to worry about too much strain on the IGH as the chain slipping it preventing too much torque from every getting there.

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            • toro1978
              toro1978 commented
              Editing a comment
              Probably a stupid question, but I will still ask it.
              Did You buy the correct chain? An IGH requires a different chain (1/2 1/8 chain) than a cassette hub - on the box it should say it is for single speed. The cassettes have too little spacing between the sprockets so the chain used is thinner and it may be the reason why it skips under load.

            • idearat
              idearat commented
              Editing a comment
              I've got the 1/8 chain. The bottom of the chain just sags and wobbles too much when the bike is moving down the road. Or so it seems. It's been hard to do the load testing on the stand where I can see things better.

            #21
            I think as a quick fix I'm going with a chain tensioner. What's interesting is that when searching for the best way to go about it I came across the PDF manual for the Ruffian. It has a tensioner just aft of the front chainwheel. I hadn't noticed that before, so I did a Google search for photos of the Ruffian and there are a lot out there where no chain tensioner is present. (in some it's hiding on the opposite side of the bike) So, that's going to be my first thing to try to fix my chain skipping problem.
            I wonder if Ruff started without the tensioner and added it later to solve a chain skipping problem. On the Ruff site there are photos on the Ruffian page with and without the tensioner. https://www.ruff-cycles.com/ruffian/
            Last edited by idearat; 04-14-2019, 07:48 AM.

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              #22
              I’m thinking the chain tensioner would be most effective when mounted near the rear sprocket—giving better wrap around the gear.

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                #23
                Originally posted by CoMoBiker View Post
                I’m thinking the chain tensioner would be most effective when mounted near the rear sprocket—giving better wrap around the gear.
                That's what I'm thinking. I have a generic one coming from Amazon. The Ruffian has it up front, making the top and bottom chains look pretty much parallel, so I think they may get a good wrap around the rear sprocket. For the rear I ordered an Afline tensioner that has a fixed sprocket that can set how much to wrap and a spring loaded one to give the tension The Porucho frame has no existing mounting holes so I'll have to do some modding.

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                  #24
                  Here is a shot of my homebuilt recumbent bike (#11) where I am using a homemade idler made from on old derailleur sprocket. Note the Adele clamp that allows forward or aft adjustments. On long runs of chain like this, having the idler toward the center greatly reduces the sway of the chain. Note that on the upper run I used pvc plastic water pipe for sway control (and cleaner pant legs). This bike is not electric at this point but I have put over 50000 miles on it and the chain setup has been very solid.

                  Comment


                  • idearat
                    idearat commented
                    Editing a comment
                    In that bike's case, I guess the derailleur gave enough tension to keep the chain wrapped around the rear sprocket, but the long chain still sagged and swayed. When my bike the stand I can see lots of wobble in the bottom chain with the motor running.
                    A chain guard is definitely in my plans. I ordered one from Ruff. It's not exactly right for my bike, but I may be able to adapt it.

                  #25
                  Thanks for the updates... i just received my frame...
                  am now ordering parts...
                  Great to have you paving the way...
                  I pretty much am planning the same setup, eggrider included

                  Comment


                  • idearat
                    idearat commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Hopefully, I figure out the chain tensioner in time for you. The two I have are made to bolt onto a standard frame and there are no handy threaded holes on the Porucho. I'm going to have to make something to mount one.

                  #26
                  Hi idearat - related to the skip (of some sort, maybe chain), I rough-figure you got an at least 15mm misaligned chain line - have you actually measured it front and back?

                  Here's the rough-guess chainline numbers:
                  • The front chainline with that 30T chain ring, on a BBSHD, in a 68mm BB, is likely out at least 60mm
                  • The RXL-RD5 flat sprocket chain line is 44mm, per S-A
                  • a 3" tire would probably need at least a 40mm chainline
                  I missed the rear sprocket tooth count, but I'm guessing it's below 20. Why did you choose the horrid chainline 30T chain ring - was it needed on the old build?

                  Also, I wrote above, "maybe chain" because, in the case of my Alfine/Nexus IGH hubs the gear adjustment has to be right on the money - otherwise the hubs will skip if real power is applied.
                  Last edited by ncrkd; 04-19-2019, 04:01 PM.
                  2nd build, 2018 Crust Scapegoat, BBS02 or BBSHD, Rohloff IGH
                  3rd build, 2018 Crust Evasion step-thru, BBS02, Shimano Nexus INTER-3 IGH
                  4th build, 2016 Salsa Marrakesh flatbar frameset, BBSHD, Alfine 8 IGH

                  Visit the forum knowledge base

                  Comment


                  • idearat
                    idearat commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I need to measure the chainline. Visually, it "looks" OK. The long chain means the same offset is a smaller angle. I have an additional dished sprocket for the rear and the original steel chainring for the front to make adjustments. I had the 30T on the motor from the previous bike, originally with the intent of improving steep hill climbing. I left it on when transferring to the new bike, planning to change one both based on how the gearing shook up. I'd also pondered a Gates belt drive. So if the solution to the chain issue it to swap out chainring, sprocket *and* an idler/tensioner I might just spend the time and money on the belt drive. Now that everything is on the bike I take proper measurements.

                  • toro1978
                    toro1978 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    If I am not misaken a belt drive requires your frame to have a frame lock - a chain You open and close to install because it crosses your seatstays, a belt you can't open and close. So you need a frame lock installed in your bike.
                    You could get a halflink chain - you can remove one link instead of two and better deal with slack this way..

                  • ncrkd
                    ncrkd commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Yep, you're right - the Gates belt usually requires a frame break, either in one of the stays or as part of the dropout. But, these frames don't need a break, as the belt/chain doesn't wrap "around" the chain stay.

                    The next hurdle is that it's difficult if not possible to hit that IGH's belt line with a BBSHD - BBS02, yes. Or if you were using a bellcrank hub with an deep sprocket - or a Rohloff.
                    Last edited by ncrkd; 04-20-2019, 01:58 PM.

                  #27
                  https://t-cycle.com/collections/idler-kits
                  could this sort of thing help?

                  Comment


                  • idearat
                    idearat commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thanks for that. They look handy, especially since they are clamp-on types. The couple I bought quick to just see what I needed to do were intended to screw into a standard derailleur mount which I don't have. I took a cutoff wheel to an old frame and removed the dropout and attached it with hose clamps. Things are greatly improved, even though I can't get it quite aligned right. All I really intended at this point was to see if an idler or tensioner is what I needed. I think will be a good idea partly due to the long chain length and I suspect that Ruff added one to their Bosch mid-drive later on for about the same reasons.

                  #28
                  My hacked tensioner as an idler improved things a bit. the chain doesn't slip under light loading when starting from a stop. I could gradually accelerate to about 23 mph which was enough to test the brakes. A couple turns of the screw at the hub made them feel nice. It's an odd feeling with the drum brakes since they are so silent. I've only had rim brakes on bikes and the audible feedback of them rubbing was always there. Of course, I'd feel how hard I squeezed and the rate I slowed down, but there was the bit of squeal as well. Sometimes I'd tap brakes to let someone know I was coming up behind them, before ringing a bell or letting them know I was passing on the left. Now there's just no sound at all.
                  I've got to sort out the motor programming. I haven't done all the cabling yet so I'm just running in PAS, no throttle. It's not backing off on the power quick enough for my taste. I think my previous use of throttle plus PAS felt more responsive. I've got the EggRider in the mix now, so it's something new to get sorted.

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Any Photos of your progress?
                    would be interested to see exactly how its all mounted...

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Eggrider... cool! You realy are doing all the heavy lufting for me...
                      i have just ordered 80mm chrome rims from these guys.
                      http://www.robsson.de/en/
                      More parts to be ordered this week
                      G

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