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    HOW TO: Throttle only without cutting PAS wire

    Hello


    I have been messing around with the programming options since I'm developing a small custom circuit board to replace the display with a small micro controller + bluetooth (ESP32) + an app for android phones.

    The goal is to have a "road legal" mode which the bike automatically starts up in and can only be changed by application on the phone.

    Two modes are planned:

    * PAS only (throttle not legal, only use for walk with bike option(6km/h max))
    * Throttle only (PAS disabled)

    PAS only will be achived by cutting the throttle signal with transistor from custom board.


    So the problem is that I got one of the new BBSHD controller which cuts power to the current level when pedaling if PAS is activated.


    But I belive I have found a way to disable PAS by just changing the programming but as I have not mounted the motor on my bike yet I can not 100% confirm.
    I would be glad if anyone would try and confirm it works as intended on the new problematic BBSHD controller. (It behaved as intended when cranking the arms manually on my test bed)


    So this what I have done:

    1. Set Assist 0: current limit=0 speed limit=0
    2. Set Assist 9: current limit=100 speed limit=100 (or lower if you don't accedentaly want to blow up your controller)
    3. Set throttle mode to: Current
    4. Set designated assist level on pedal assist page to: 0
    5. Set designated assist level on throttle page to: 9

    Edit:
    Accoding to AZguy below it seems to be possible to have multiple levels of thottle by setting current limits on assist 1 - 9 and setting designated
    assist to "by displays command" on throttle page.



    Program and try out. On my BBSHD the PAS is completly ignored now, only throttle can be used.

    Anyone willing to try and confirm?


    Maybe this has been posted before but if so I was unable to find it...




    Last edited by dn9; 04-30-2018, 09:30 AM.

    #2
    Very, very interesting. I wasn't even going to bother trying this - I didn't see how this would work.

    The PAS levels and PAS in general has no effect any more. It's all about the throttle but you can pedal and still have that lusciously smooth throttle while still pedaling. Changing the PAS level makes no difference and if you don't touch the throttle you get no power while pedaling. The throttle just ignores whether or not you are pedaling and gives the throttle-only response. I think this is pretty much the same as cutting the PAS cadence sensor wire.

    Comment


      #3
      I'm saving this one..

      Barber

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by AZguy View Post
        Very, very interesting. I wasn't even going to bother trying this - I didn't see how this would work.

        The PAS levels and PAS in general has no effect any more. It's all about the throttle but you can pedal and still have that lusciously smooth throttle while still pedaling. Changing the PAS level makes no difference and if you don't touch the throttle you get no power while pedaling. The throttle just ignores whether or not you are pedaling and gives the throttle-only response. I think this is pretty much the same as cutting the PAS cadence sensor wire.

        Thank your for confiming, this is good news!

        Comment


          #5
          I set it up a bit differently. I set the display to three levels of PAS and set them so:

          PAS 0 - I=100%, S= 0%
          PAS 1 - I= 50%, S= 72%
          PAS 2 - I= 71%, S= 72%
          PAS 3 - I=100%, S=100%

          PAS designated assist level = 0
          Throttle designated assist level = By Display's Command

          I ran this all day yesterday and will say it works like advertised. It does what you would expect if you removed the pedal cadence sensor and it completely ignores if you are pedaling or not. Power is independent of pedaling and 100% controlled by throttle. Throttle delivery is perfectly smooth pedaling or not.

          Not much point in having more than three levels if you always throttle so I went with three.

          It's odd to get used to power not starting just by pedaling and for it not to stop when you stop pedaling but not that hard. It's much more moto than bicycle in my opinion this way. I know some people will much prefer this over the PAS way and it's nice to know it can be set easily without opening the unit to disconnect the cadence sensor,

          I figure I'll run with this for a week or so just to get used to it. I think I prefer the PAS way though. Again, nice to know this is so easy...


          Click image for larger version

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          Comment


          • AZguy
            AZguy commented
            Editing a comment
            One thing about this is it almost eliminates the usefulness of the brake cutoffs.

          #6
          what happens with the brake cut offs? So now it is like using the throttle as a variable PAS?

          Comment


            #7
            Brake cutoffs and gearsensor work normally.

            In a sense it is like using the throttle as a variable [constant-power] PAS. I find it easier to just think of it as the controller just ignoring the pedals altogether though and the throttle is everything.

            I still pedal 99% of the time but in this mode you must use the throttle. I built a cute little circuit that suppresses the pedal sense as soon as you apply throttle to allow for both PAS and throttle. The concept was proven out with different circuitry by some guys on ES so I'm comfortable it will work, I just need to get around to integrating it into my controller....

            Comment


              #8
              Originally posted by AZguy View Post
              I set it up a bit differently. I set the display to three levels of PAS and set them so:

              PAS 0 - I=100%, S= 0%
              PAS 1 - I= 50%, S= 72%
              PAS 2 - I= 71%, S= 72%
              PAS 3 - I=100%, S=100%

              PAS designated assist level = 0
              Throttle designated assist level = By Display's Command

              I ran this all day yesterday and will say it works like advertised. It does what you would expect if you removed the pedal cadence sensor and it completely ignores if you are pedaling or not. Power is independent of pedaling and 100% controlled by throttle. Throttle delivery is perfectly smooth pedaling or not.

              Not much point in having more than three levels if you always throttle so I went with three.

              It's odd to get used to power not starting just by pedaling and for it not to stop when you stop pedaling but not that hard. It's much more moto than bicycle in my opinion this way. I know some people will much prefer this over the PAS way and it's nice to know it can be set easily without opening the unit to disconnect the cadence sensor,

              I figure I'll run with this for a week or so just to get used to it. I think I prefer the PAS way though. Again, nice to know this is so easy...


              Click image for larger version  Name:	ricky.gif Views:	13 Size:	1.3 KB ID:	63315

              I am trying to understand this a little better as I am getting ready to buy a new Bfang. what your saying is the new ones do not allow any throttle use while in PAS mode correct??

              My curent one I always just use the throttle with PAS mode at 0 and pedal all the time. But it seems if I am understadning correctly you can not even do that now??

              So your mod (thanks for sharing) allows us to now peddle and use the throttle at the same time as long as it is PAS 0?? is this correct?

              Are we still able to use PAS just not with throttle?? or can we use it with throtte after your mod?



              thanks
              Dave

              Comment


                #9
                so by just changing the settings you can at least use the throttle when peddling with PAS set at 0?? thats pretty much how I use my old one all the time anyways, just concerned with getting a new one and not being able to this.

                so you can still use PAS just no over ride with the throttle??

                Man Bfang messed up a great thing IMO

                Comment


                • AZguy
                  AZguy commented
                  Editing a comment
                  This way you don't use it in PAS 0

                  PAS 1 - max throttle = ~750W
                  PAS 2 - max throttle = ~1000W
                  PAS 3 - max throttle = ~1500W

                  The pedal cadence is limited in PAS 1 & 2 to a speed I can just barely do, adjust to what works for you. PAS 3 is "wide open"

                  Running this way I almost never changed from PAS 1 - 750W is a reasonable maximum on my bike for >95% and stops me from slamming more when cornering, etc. - when I need more for a very steep climb or just to have more umph above 20mph or so I just bump it up...

                #10
                For the last couple of years BBSxxx controllers override the throttle with pedal assist when you are pedaling and the throttle will only respond to full throttle while pedaling

                Frankly I think this programming setup might be ok for you since you say you are typically "on the throttle"

                Some folks [myself included] have constructed little electrical circuits to allow it to ignore the pedaling once you apply throttle but they are a non-trivial modification - reasonably easy for someone with basic mechanical and soldering skills, but time consuming

                The "fix" here is stupid simple and will appeal to anyone that primarily uses the throttle to control things...

                Click image for larger version

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Views:	32
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                Comment


                  #11
                  Originally posted by dn9 View Post
                  Hello


                  I have been messing around with the programming options since I'm developing a small custom circuit board to replace the display with a small micro controller + bluetooth (ESP32) + an app for android phones.

                  The goal is to have a "road legal" mode which the bike automatically starts up in and can only be changed by application on the phone.

                  Two modes are planned:

                  * PAS only (throttle not legal, only use for walk with bike option(6km/h max))
                  * Throttle only (PAS disabled)

                  PAS only will be achived by cutting the throttle signal with transistor from custom board.


                  So the problem is that I got one of the new BBSHD controller which cuts power to the current level when pedaling if PAS is activated.


                  But I belive I have found a way to disable PAS by just changing the programming but as I have not mounted the motor on my bike yet I can not 100% confirm.
                  I would be glad if anyone would try and confirm it works as intended on the new problematic BBSHD controller. (It behaved as intended when cranking the arms manually on my test bed)


                  So this what I have done:

                  1. Set Assist 0: current limit=0 speed limit=0
                  2. Set Assist 9: current limit=100 speed limit=100 (or lower if you don't accedentaly want to blow up your controller)
                  3. Set throttle mode to: Current
                  4. Set designated assist level on pedal assist page to: 0
                  5. Set designated assist level on throttle page to: 9

                  Edit:
                  Accoding to AZguy below it seems to be possible to have multiple levels of thottle by setting current limits on assist 1 - 9 and setting designated
                  assist to "by displays command" on throttle page.



                  Program and try out. On my BBSHD the PAS is completly ignored now, only throttle can be used.

                  Anyone willing to try and confirm?


                  Maybe this has been posted before but if so I was unable to find it...



                  I just completed a build with a new BBSHD and 52v battery. I programmed the controller using my tried and true values from an older BBSHD. I immediately found that the new motor did not operate the same. I could start off in say, PAS 3, and then decide to add throttle and the power would die. Or, I could be motoring along using throttle only in PAS0 and then start peddling, and the power would die.

                  OP, have you used this setup enough to confirm it still works without any new problem surfacing? If so, great news. I prefer throttle only and pedaling as needed. Also, can I still use a gear sensor with this setup? Thx.

                  Comment


                    #12
                    I'm not the OP but have done "research" on this. To answer your question directly, the setup works just fine. I have setup two BBSHD's this way that have been run for months with complete rider satisfaction. Both riders want to use the throttle for power delivery and control whether pedaling or not and this does that.

                    Gear sensor and brake sensors work normally. I recommend the gear sensor in this setup. Since throttle is the entire control the brake sensors are much less important and when I run it like this I disconnect the rear brake sensor and leave the front brake sensor connected.


                    To provide you details of the present situation. Early models the throttle would "override" the PAS function - i.e. as soon as you applied throttle then throttle would override the PAS and the throttle would control the power delivery and once the throttle was returned to off, PAS would function.

                    Later models the PAS "overrides" the throttle unless the throttle is at full - i.e. pedaling engages the PAS and causes the control to ignore the throttle unless it is WOT and then you get WOT power. The throttle only works normally when there is no pedaling. A "symptom" of this is that if you aren't pedaling and running the throttle for control and then start pedaling you'll get PAS power instead of the throttle.

                    Some folks, myself included, have built various little circuits that installed in the controller cut of the pedal sensor output to the controller when throttle is applied restoring the behavior in later models to the behavior of the early models.

                    Comment


                      #13
                      Originally posted by AZguy View Post
                      I set it up a bit differently. I set the display to three levels of PAS and set them so:

                      PAS 0 - I=100%, S= 0%
                      PAS 1 - I= 50%, S= 72%
                      PAS 2 - I= 71%, S= 72%
                      PAS 3 - I=100%, S=100%

                      PAS designated assist level = 0
                      Throttle designated assist level = By Display's Command

                      I ran this all day yesterday and will say it works like advertised. It does what you would expect if you removed the pedal cadence sensor and it completely ignores if you are pedaling or not. Power is independent of pedaling and 100% controlled by throttle. Throttle delivery is perfectly smooth pedaling or not.

                      Not much point in having more than three levels if you always throttle so I went with three.

                      It's odd to get used to power not starting just by pedaling and for it not to stop when you stop pedaling but not that hard. It's much more moto than bicycle in my opinion this way. I know some people will much prefer this over the PAS way and it's nice to know it can be set easily without opening the unit to disconnect the cadence sensor,

                      I figure I'll run with this for a week or so just to get used to it. I think I prefer the PAS way though. Again, nice to know this is so easy...


                      Click image for larger version  Name:	ricky.gif Views:	18 Size:	1.3 KB ID:	63315
                      I now have a BBSHD controller with this issue, first one. It made me a lot crashier, so I have been running with PAS disconnected. Really miss PAS, though!

                      I reconnected my PAS connector and tried these settings. I had no PAS as expected, but the throttle was ON/OFF full power when I pedaled. I'm guessing there must be an additional setting needed, which I have set differently. So I disconnected again. But I'd try one more time....

                      Can you think of what that setting might be? I tried several things, but couldn't figure it out.
                      Last edited by JPLabs; 11-02-2018, 02:35 PM.
                      Fabrication is fun! Build something today. Show someone. Let them help. Inspire and share. Spread the desire.

                      Comment


                      • AZguy
                        AZguy commented
                        Editing a comment
                        These three would be the critical ones:

                        PAS 0 - I=100%, S= 0%
                        PAS designated assist level = 0
                        Throttle designated assist level = By Display's Command

                        And then you need have selected a PAS level other than 0 when you pedal


                        I'm making a lot of progress on moving my little circuit to a PCB - stay tuned

                      #14
                      OK, thanks for breaking that down, it makes sense.

                      Hmm....I did have those settings. Maybe I made a simple mistake. In a PAS level other than zero, it should have smooth throttle, full current control, like with disabled PAS, as I understand. That's where I had an issue, it seemed to only work for high current, not low.

                      Trying to think of where I may have erred: One thought I had is that maybe mine wasn't turning throttle on at 100% current as I said above, maybe it only jumped to PAS current limit for that level. Starting at 71% in PAS 2, for example. But, it was NOT smooth and full control from 0-100% current, as with PAS disabled. It kicked in hard, with deadband, as I recall. Is that how it works? Or, truly 0-100% current control as with PAS disconnected.

                      I could not go slow, basically, using throttle and pedals.

                      My particular controller has hard potting, like epoxy or hard PU, not silicone, so I don't know if the circuit mod is applicable. Meaning, I don't know if I have the patience and finesse to dig it out without damaging anything.
                      Fabrication is fun! Build something today. Show someone. Let them help. Inspire and share. Spread the desire.

                      Comment


                        #15
                        I have the start current (throttle page) set at 1% and power delivery is as smooth as imaginable. I can put so little in and move so slow I can feel the pole pulses in the motor.

                        There may be other settings like start current that impact this performance. I'll take a look and see if anything jumps out.

                        So far I've setup three BBSHD's with the same settings (except speed set at 100% in all levels) with the same results and very happy users.

                        Comment

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