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Cutting up a Diamond Back for a Cyclone 3000 build

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    Cutting up a Diamond Back for a Cyclone 3000 build

    Being new to this board, I originally posted this in the wrong section. To top it off, I don't know how to remove the original post, at least at this point in time.
    Being brand spankin new to Ebikes, it took me months and months of research before making a DIY purchase. My intention from the build is to have an Ebike that I can use to pack into some of the National Forests, i.e., backpack Ebiking. In short, I want something that will climb exceptionally well. Over the months of research, I was beginning to settle on the BBS02. I then heard about the BBSHD being released. About the same time I heard about the BBSHD, I discovered the Cyclone. I am sure like many, I had that debate between the BBSHD, a pretty straight forward instillation, and the more powerful Cyclone 3000. During this time of research, I also discovered,, and, all such priceless resources. I knew the Cyclone would require a customized mounting bracket, to do it right, and make it reliable. I knew it would require welding aluminum. I can weld, but I never learned to weld aluminum, so I started talking to a good friend of mine, Jim Day.

    Jim is an artist, a pedigreed one, ya know, with a graduate degree an all. He's a fabricator, a builder... He has a few pieces of his work hanging in museums, used in photo shoots... So in short, the perfect guy to help me out, where I need a little help. Now I'd say I have know Jim long enough to say I truly know him. What I mean, is that as an artist, I would need to give him a free hand. You see, Jim not only takes pride in his work, but as an artist, he requires the latitude of free expression, within his art. As such, I knew I was risking having him take over the project. After a couple of lengthy discussions and dinners, we came to an understanding. I have commissioned a piece of art from Jim Day. We discussed design and function, and I know Jim fully understands what I want from the bike. I also know his work, and know I will get more than I anticipate. Otherwise, Jim has all the freedom in this project that he wants, while still utilizing my donor Diamond Back 29er. For those that might know Jim, we have already discussed a ground up full suspension build, another commission piece, perhaps at the beginning of the year.

    Now I knew I wanted to post about the build, but when Luna offered up store credit, I was fully aboard, as I know I will be spending more more on at least one more custom build. So, day one, The bikes bottom bracket is removed, and after looking over the Lunacycle bottom bracket supplied with the Cyclone 3000 kit, we decide to make some upgrades to the Lunacycle bottom bracket with some parts Jim has lying around his studio. Perhaps an unnecessary upgrade, but Jim requires latitude. Then it's time for some hacking to see how it is all going to fit together. Warning, for some here, the following picture might appear a bit radical, but I assure, Jim is a professional. ([{Disclaimer, don't try this at home, lol)]}.
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    More to follow, as it progresses. I will also be posting a parts list with costs as requested by Lunacycle. in the mean time, this is the start.

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    omg that is amazing...such nice work.... great innovation i think...i will be watching this thread :) No gamble no future! :) I love the idea of the mid drive in the triangle and wonder why more builders dont do this.


      Eric, the stage it is at is just a test, as nothing is welded back together yet. Jim and I have discussed a few options, from a single square tube, to double round tubes. The last discussion was left with a single rectangle tube, to be heated, shaped fitted, re-heated and shaped if necessary, and then welded in place. I just didn't like the idea of having the motor hanging down and vulnerable, and in doing this, we have the opportunity to do a custom mounting system that eliminates the frame torque concerns, while aligning the motor in an optimal position. Assembling a mid-drive the standard status quo way takes some degree of skill and knowledge, but cutting a bike apart and putting it back together, while maintaining it's strength, integrity and maneuverability/performance can be a whole different thing. Like many things we are unsure of, many of us shy away from it. Then there are the tools and equipment involved, that alone will obviously keep many from this type of build. Jim is an innovator. The guy specializes in taking good sound ideas and improving them, making things function better... Like many of the things he has built, his BMW builds are a testament to his ingenuity. I am very fortunate to have him helping me with this build. This certainly is not going to be a quick simple build. Yet I don't expect it to take to long.


      • Eric Luna
        Eric Luna commented
        Editing a comment
        when you said bmw here i assumed i know you mean bmw bikes... thats way better ;) I am sure the build is going to be great.

      I don't know man - maybe use some 3/16 or 1/4" binding plates welded to the sides to regain the strength lost from cutting that butted tubing?
      That would give it all a 'reinforced' type look while actually reinforcing it :-)
      I could envision sliding the tube down a little further to preserve the decal and cutting it to make straight run to BB.
      Then some fancy fitting of a couple sections of cut tubing up front all glued together with the butt plates?

      My Giant XTC aluminum frame was manufactured/modified for racing and one of the main things they did to frame was add taller steering tube and then reinforce the crap out of it top and bottom.
      This was for longer forks than stock options while maintaining geometry.
      Possibly because of top tube angle - they also changed the rear seat stays to mold into one huge tube after tire and then hit frame with a lot of metal.

      (Just for info to the uninitiated: butting of tubing is where the metal has different thickness along tubes that greatly increases the overall strength of them and of the joints where the tubes connect.
      Most of the later aluminum frames were hydro-formed using water to form precise thickness and shape of the tubes before welding; this is how they get the 'square' tubes with butting, etc.
      An example of the strength increase from butting can be found in the Sapin spokes I used to build my wheels; they claim the triple butted aluminum spokes I got are 3 times stronger than steel of the same thickness.)


        Originally posted by FatMarty View Post
        I don't know man - maybe use some 3/16 or 1/4" binding plates welded to the sides to regain the strength lost from cutting that butted tubing?
        I saw this and had to sign up. With all due respect I think that is a bad idea.

        Think of a frame as a interactive system where things are made to flex and work together. Butting works because the areas with the most stress are butted in order to transfer energy into the rest of the tubing, but ...... and this is the big deal they are not butted so much as to put all the energy into the other metal. In other words they still have to flex as well, it's like a tapered exchange. In this frame the only part of that lower tube that was butted was at the head tube where the materiel was .1250, roughly a 1/8 the lower section at the bottom bracket was actually closer to .1055 1/10 because that part of the tube is flared out into a much larger tube. Essentially that larger diameter gives the thinner aluminum just as much rigidity as the thicker metal at the smaller diameter connection to the head tube, so it's a balanced interactive system. Butting is not a sheer wall it's about evenly moving energy from the work areas through the frame. You're thinking adding big plates will give strength like a sheer wall which might work with a softer material, but that's no bueno with 6061 T6 because the plates will cause the adjacent tubing to flex then work harden and break.

        Like I said the aluminum alloy is 6061 T6. I don't know if you have ever worked with it but I do all the time and it's a very hard, very stiff aluminum because it's essentially crystallized. The alloy is precipitation (age) hardened when manufactured. Basically after chilled from solution the alloy is heated to around 325 and 400 degrees and held at that temp to get the atoms to form ordered arrays (essentially crystal structures) in the aluminum matrix and they strengthen the aluminum considerably. This heat treatment is called aging, which results in a hard stiff material with a T6 temper. The drawback is that structure works against bending and when subjected to plastic deformation the metal becomes very brittle and fails. You can heat treat T6 for forming or bending, I have to do this all the time, and It's actually a pretty simple direct process. You heat it up to 350+ with a torch, that releases the crystalline structure to maybe T4 and allows me to bend it for a few hours, but as it cools the structure reforms, and eventually it goes back to T6. If I try and bend untreated T6 it actually gets harder and more brittle and almost always eventually fails. That is why your plates would cause failure. If you take a piece of 1/8 wall 2 inch round T6 tubing and put it in my pneumatic bender and try to bend it cold it will bend a inch or two then shatter with a sound like a gunshot. Preheat the same piece and you can bend it no problem but you have to do it fast because it re-hardens relatively quickly with time.

        I'm not going to go into detail about what I'm going to do because without seeing it it's not really going to be that understandable, but essentially I'm going to be making a rigid sub frame that will strengthen the original frame without over taxing what's already there. That said none of the parts will be over a 1/8 inch in wall thickness, and it will all still be the same 6061 T6 alloy.
        Last edited by Jim Day; 09-01-2016, 04:25 PM.


        • Eric Luna
          Eric Luna commented
          Editing a comment
          Welcome Jim thanks for joining..... I can tell this bike is going to be awesome! I got faith you will pull this off....not many have the guts or the skills to hack apart a frame and weld it back together.

          Are you planning to use the cyclone as part of the supporting structure for the new frame?

        Originally posted by Bubblehide View Post
        Jim is.........Blahabablahbablalhhhhaaaaa....
        ...and I thought I was long winded.

        As Gary already knows I just build stuff. Lately I've been building my own custom BMW dirt bikes with modified frames and suspensions I design myself.

        This may not be as exciting as all that but it should be just as functional.
        Last edited by Jim Day; 09-01-2016, 08:56 AM.


        • Eric Luna
          Eric Luna commented
          Editing a comment
          yeah obviously bicycles will be no problem for you.... :)

        Well I get credit for making you join the forum :-)
        I understand what you said and it sounds like you understand it a whole lot more than I ever did.
        I still don't see how you will get it back to strength yet.
        Isn't frame geometry important to strength as well as handling?

        I can't wait to see the end product because I'm having a hard time envisioning this.
        Same with the America's Cup guy doing a motor cutout with carbon fiber to rebuild it.
        Really wild to see this sort of fabrication.


        • Eric Luna
          Eric Luna commented
          Editing a comment
          Good work fished in a serious frame builder :)

        Oh boy, this is going to be a good one!

        Thanks already, guys.

        Jim, feel free to give as many little engineering dissertations as you like, please! That frame design and alloy discussion was a pleasure to read.
        Fabrication is fun! Build something today. Show someone. Let them help. Inspire and share. Spread the desire.


        • FatMarty
          FatMarty commented
          Editing a comment
          I'm still dizzy from that smack down :-) I agree - awesome discussion and project here.

        JPLabs, you might get more than you bargain for. Jim is detailed oriented, and he loves to share his knowledge, as he truly enjoys inspiring and teaching others. Since the next phase is pretty much all Jim, I'm going to count on him to post about it; the frame rebuild that is. However, it is one of those things that is very difficult to put into words and make it understandable, without pictures. So he likely won't post about it until the frame is all welded up. The bottom line is that this build is going to come together in stages; the next one being critical. To top it off, once again, the fabrication design looks like it has changed from my last description, and I like the innovative improvements Jim and I have discussed; not just for the strength in design, but the aesthetic features too.


        • Eric Luna
          Eric Luna commented
          Editing a comment
          nice sweeet ...thanks again for bringing this build thread here....truly awesome :)

        So here's a few shots for yesterday, some pieces tacked in place.


          Very nice Jim - Now I'm starting to get it.


            Daaaaayum! I was worried as soon as I saw the first pic of the cut frame, but...the results look stronger than the original (which is as it should be, when adding a heavy motor and battery). Well done!
            Last edited by spinningmagnets; 09-02-2016, 05:32 AM. Reason: speling


              Originally posted by spinningmagnets View Post
              Daaaaayum! I was worried as soon as I saw the first pic of the cut frame, but...the results look stronger than the original (which is as it should be, when adding a heavy motor and battery). Well done!
              There's more structure going in it, that's just the first bars. The final frame will be much stronger then the original, but it has to be


                Okay, keeping with the requirements, here is what I purchased for this build:
                72v Triangle Panasonic GA 17.5ah with Luna Charger
                (Add a Luna Charger at a Discounted Rate: 72V 300W Advanced Luna Charger)
                72-TRI-17.5ah-GA 1 $695.95 USD $695.95 USD
                Subtotal: $695.95 USD
                Shipping: $40.00 USD
                Tax: $62.64 USD
                Grand Total: $798.59 USD
                Cane Creek Thudbuster LT Seat Post THDBSTR-27.2-LNG-BLK 1 $129.95 USD $129.95 USD
                Canecreek Thudbuster Shim thudbuster-shim-27.2 1 $8.95 USD $8.95 USD
                Cyclone Mid Drive 3000 watt Planetary KIT
                (Upgrade your Bottom Bracket to an ISIS (Crank Arms Sold Separately): Standard Square Tapered BB 68-83mm, Upgrade to a Triple Chain Ring $25.00: 48/44/24T, Throttle Options: ORO Right Half Twist Throttle for Cyclone Drive with Power Switch and LED $14.95, Optional Pedal Assist Add On: Cadence Sensor for Pedal Assist $12.00, Ebrake Cutoff Sensors (Higly Reccomended): Pair of eBrake Sensors $20.00)
                CYCLONE-MTR 1 $431.90 USD $431.90 USD
                Subtotal: $570.80 USD
                Shipping: $25.00 USD
                Tax: $51.36 USD
                Grand Total: $647.16 USD
                Black XT90 Connector (male and female set) XT90-BLK 2 $1.75 USD $3.50 USD
                Cycle Analyst V3 DPS (with speed sensor)
                (Add a CA3 Shunt at a discounted price: Cycle Analyst Shunt $20.00)
                CA-V3DPS 1 $149.95 USD $149.95 USD
                Deans Plugs / 20 sets DEAN-20PCS 1 $19.95 USD $19.95 USD
                XT90 Spark Resistant Connector (Set) xt90-S 2 $2.95 USD $5.90 USD
                Subtotal: $179.30 USD
                Shipping: $7.00 USD
                Tax: $16.14 USD
                Grand Total: $202.44 USD
                All the products were purchased from Lunacycle. I have yet to add it all up for a grand total.


                  Day 3 A little more progress. Now you can see where I'm going....

                  So that is the basic frame, and right now I'm at 6 pounds.
                  Last edited by Jim Day; 09-04-2016, 06:43 AM.


                  • richardgreer
                    richardgreer commented
                    Editing a comment
                    these pictures are not loading for me, not sure if it just my computer or if other are having same problem. I really want to see those pictures hahah