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1st Build & E-Bike rider-Magic Pie V5 (rear) -Bottle Batt. 52v*11.5ah-Huffy Parkside

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    1st Build & E-Bike rider-Magic Pie V5 (rear) -Bottle Batt. 52v*11.5ah-Huffy Parkside




    Mission Statement:

    To build an electric powered, two wheeled, one person bicycle, that requires no manual input to get you where you want to go.
    (No pedal assist desired here...)

    That has a range of at least 20 miles. Having a display that accurately depicts speed, power remaining and amp draw.

    Available in an easy to procure kit.

    That is easy to control and ride. Having a soft, comfortable ride. (No mountain trails here...)

    Quiet, safe, and easy to maintain.

    To be legal on bike paths.

    With minimal exposed wiring. Having a neat and clean install.



    I welcome any and all helpful comments to this endeavor.




    Question of the day...

    Twist throttle vrs. Thumb throttle...???
    Never used ether, but always liked motorcycle twist grips... Seeking advice on their differences and which is more preferred.


    As of 11-8-2017

    Thumb Throttle-2
    Twist throttle-0

    Found a good post on this subject HERE




    Respectfully submitted,

    Tommycat
    Last edited by Tommycat; 12-08-2017, 06:44 PM. Reason: Updated throttle vote count...
    See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

    #2
    I go thumb throttle as it's more predictable. If I lose control of the bike I'm a lot less likely to accidentally add more throttle if using a thumb throttle compared to a twist.

    Comment


    • Tommycat
      Tommycat commented
      Editing a comment
      what's the red button for? Found the answer... It's commonly used to enable the back-up function. But other wise can be used for what-ever purpose you'd like that needs a latching switch.

    • Tommycat
      Tommycat commented
      Editing a comment
      Back from the future...After gaining access to the throttle wiring, and verifying with the pin-out diagrams and a meter.
      The twist throttle red button switch is wired to provide battery + power to the lighting wire of the front dead ended harness.
      Light Switch!

    • Tommycat
      Tommycat commented
      Editing a comment
      UPDATE: 10-27-2018
      Pax was absolutely right. A full twist throttle will tend to jump around a bit when going over rough terrain. Stubbornly hanging on to my full twisty though by cutting it down to a third twist! :-) Jump to Post #39... Also note that thumb throttles can come with a key switch, push switch, 3 way switch, and a much recommended LED Digital read-out for battery voltage if you don't have or want another means to monitor. And other combinations! Wow.

    #3
    As you can see from the post's title. Some components have been chosen, though not all set in stone...yet.

    Decided on the Magic Pie V5, as it appears to be the most powerful. Not requiring pedal assist. Also comes in a kit. Well supported by Luna Cycle.
    The battery is a direct result of choosing the M.P.5. Again looking for max power output, and in my opinion best looks. Picked the Bottle Pack by Luna. 52volts-11.5 AH... I feel that it should be good for 20 miles. (at least)


    So let's start with these...

    See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

    Comment


    • ykick
      ykick commented
      Editing a comment
      Electric or leg powered on flat smooth road on calm day any upright bicycle needs 400-500W to push 20MPH of wind out of the way.

      52V 11.5Ah battery pack is just shy of 600Wh. In a perfect flat world at 20MPH and no headwind it can theoretically supply 500W for an hour slightly more. That should travel a little over 20 miles using the above example.

      But, cutting it close and add in some 10MPH headwind and a ground speed of 10MPH? Now you can only do 10 miles before that battery pack is practically empty.

      That is the difficulty estimating battery pack range. One day you may have a tailwind and that same pack can go 30 miles. Or, another day you might be climbing long hills and burning 3X the power around 1500W. That 600Wh pack is only gonna be good for 20 minutes or so....

    • Tommycat
      Tommycat commented
      Editing a comment
      Hi Ykick, Thank you for your comments and great rule of thumb..."Electric or leg powered on flat smooth road on calm day any upright bicycle needs 400-500W to push 20MPH of wind out of the way." Good to know. Since the 20 mile goal is just a theoretical figure, based loosely on how long of a ride I'd like to take. With no required distance, it looks like this battery should do nicely. As always real world conditions will determine a lot. May I add to your excellent comments that probably ambient temperatures and the percentage of battery that you want to use up would also vary total distance...Although I'll surely be a fair weather rider. :-)

    #4
    For what it's worth if you do run into some situation where you need longer range, the magic pie controllers are fully programmable with a golden motor program cable. This would allow you to lower the current output and considerably extend your range in exchange for reduced torque.

    Comment


    • Tommycat
      Tommycat commented
      Editing a comment
      Roger that Pax. This is definitely in the game plan...mainly to keep things legal! Is it correct that you can program it to limit top speed, yet keep the torque?

      Now if that pesky program cable ever gets re-stocked. :-(

    • paxtana
      paxtana commented
      Editing a comment
      Yes you can limit top speed. I would just get the cable from golden motor canada, it's gonna be a while before we restock it.

    #5
    I started here with my first purchase...Luna's beautiful 52volt-11.5ah Bottle battery pack!






    Why start here?

    I wanted it to absolutely, perfectly, and with no doubt fit neatly into the bike's frame. So with it in my hot little paws, I can take it directly to the bike store to fit it directly!


    The good... Got things going! I like the shape, quality, and features. Especially like the BMS cut-off with it's own side mounted switch!

    The bad...As you might have noticed, it does not look like the advertisement pictures...





    Contacted Luna about this discrepancy and was told that the silver case is no longer available. And they would be unable to supply it. I requested that they kindly update their advertising on it's web page so as to not disappoint more buyers, but as of today it's still being misrepresented. So heads up! When in doubt it looks like a phone call would be good insurance. Back from the future. Corrected by Pax...see below


    Also the batteries power pigtail had wiring exposed to possible rubbing problems. Very minor. Easily fixed with a flexible loop inside the holder end. Lots of spare room. UPDATE: This was addressed later as I installed a Solid State Relay in the roomy case base.
    Jump to Post # 23...






    The Ugly... Shipping problems! Three delivery dates needed which required me to stay home and wait so I could sign for the Hazmat battery package, two being messed up.
    Incorrect Hazmat documentation, messed up tracking codes were determined to be the source of the glitches... But finally after a three week delay it arrived safe and sound. Very well packed and awaiting my next steps...


    Question for today... What is this connector...and will the mate be provided with the MPv5 Kit? Back from the future...Answered by Pax and Max below...



    Last edited by Tommycat; 10-27-2018, 06:47 AM. Reason: Back from the future...
    See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

    Comment


    • max_volt
      max_volt commented
      Editing a comment
      My BBSHDs came with Andersons and I am sticking with them. Cheap to buy and easy to make. Crimp and solder to the metal piece and insert into the plastic so no melted parts.

    • Tommycat
      Tommycat commented
      Editing a comment
      Hi Max, Can you tell me how to remove the terminals from a finished housing?

    • max_volt
      max_volt commented
      Editing a comment
      They can be a bit confusing but once you work with a couple it all makes sense.
      http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTU4WDU0NA==/z/Vw8AAOxylpNTVw1v/$_3.JPG?set_id=2

    #6
    Thanks for the heads up, we had it modified for the 48 but not 52. Pics are fixed.

    That's an Anderson connector, you'll want to cut it off for hardwiring or using an xt90-s pigtails set. Only bbsxx are plug and play, golden motors come with bare wires off the motor as described in the hardcase documentation.

    http://electricbike.com/forum/forum/...ries-basic-faq

    There's a lot of wiring info there, as well as best practices for the pack such as strap reinforcement and regularly checking contacts, dielectric grease etc. Highly recommended reading.

    Comment


    • Tommycat
      Tommycat commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks Pax, Still see silver examples, hopefully people will read the descriptions...
      Connectors on the buy list.
      Link in Favorites.

    #7
    Alright, time to choose a bicycle for the build!

    My buyer's notes...

    1) Battery must fit.
    2) Shimano freewheel. (save money having to buy one that fits the Pie...)
    3) Steel frame. (to take the torque)
    4) 135mm drop-out. (So the Pie fits)
    5) Wider tires.
    6) Good rims.
    7) Disc brakes.
    8) Suspension.
    9) Fenders.
    10) Big soft seat.
    11) Nice color.
    12) Must fit both myself, (6') and wife 5'6"...


    Take the battery in it's holder, tape measure, ruler and magnet with me to the store... and this is what I came away with.










    Ahhhhh, the Huffy Parkside! 27.5 wheels. Linear pull caliper brakes. Seven speed. Fits well. Great cruising position. 1.75" tires. Good looking. 135mm drop-out.(nice surprise) Steel frame.
    Didn't get everything I was looking for. But to me this was an acceptable compromise.





    Let's get to mounting the battery!
    See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

    Comment


      #8
      For that bike since it doesn't have disc brakes I would HIGHLY recommend using Kool-stop ebike brake pads. The MP5 can hit around 35mph with is really damn fast on a bicycle, and those pads were not built for it.

      Comment


      • Tommycat
        Tommycat commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks for the safety tip Pax! Much appreciated. Just to note: top legal speed in Illinois is 20 miles per hour, and I will be programming the Pie to meet this requirement. So that will be significantly less than capabilities...that said I'll be very wary during the shake down cruises. And have made a note on the better pad recommendation.

      • Tommycat
        Tommycat commented
        Editing a comment
        Back from the future... Don't have any problem stopping with the reduced power as mentioned. But did install Kool-pads on the front wheel later on to try and eliminate a brake squeal...arrrrg.

      #9
      So knowing that the battery pack will physically fit on the frame. Time to make it happen.

      First issue. The frames bottle mounting studs stick up above the tubing. And the bottom of the battery holder is flush. Also the studs are too low on the frame to align with the holder openings.




      Studs sitting to tall...









      Couldn't file them down as they are attached to the frame with welds at the top collar so...decided to move the holes on the holder, and grind out with a Dremal so it'll fit.







      O.K. after all is said and done, it might have been cleaner to just drill a correct size partial hole so the collar would fit. But this worked...

      Added third hole towards the top for extra secureness. Used a self tap sheet metal screw with rubber washer. Sealing with silicone caulk to prevent corrosion.














      Yes! It is a snug fit!

      Changed the top self tap screw to a Rivnut.
      See about the extra Rivnut installation in post # 27... Short Cut.

      More information here. https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...re-you-need-it
      Last edited by Tommycat; 07-13-2018, 05:53 AM. Reason: Added shortcut.
      See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

      Comment


        #10
        Golden Pie is on it's way! Got time for a motor-less first ride shake-down cruse.

        Every thing looked great from the store. Good alignment, good brake action, everything appearing secure. Re-torqued the wheel nuts and went for a couple rides.

        So after a couple miles, returned nursing a loose handle bar. Re-positioned and tightened. Found and secured a loose seat lock.
        Found a resistance on the drive train.Troubleshot and found the bottom bearing assembly too tight and binding the bearings. Loosened up at tad. Much better.
        Found resistance in the front wheel bearings.They also appear too tight and binding, loosened until freewheeling.
        Got the dreaded front brake squeal! Yikes a nasty one. Wouldn't need a bell with that racket...Made a few pad adjustments but just can't seem to get rid of it. Will clean the rim and pads well, then try to toe it in a bit if needed...
        Tweaked a spoke or two in the front wheel for trueness and adjusted the brakes.
        Didn't bother with the gearing as I'm sure it will probably change with the hub motor installation.

        Lessons learned...

        Tighten EVERYTHING to specs. Things will stretch, loosen up, and settle in with use. Looks like minor adjustments may be required until broke in.


        Question for the day... What display(s) do you use to keep track of speed, battery charge, and power draw?


        Last edited by Tommycat; 10-27-2018, 06:55 AM.
        See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

        Comment


        • ykick
          ykick commented
          Editing a comment
          Set of Allen wrenches always accompanies my maiden rides.

        • max_volt
          max_volt commented
          Editing a comment
          There are inexpensive little swiss army knife type biking tools that I always carry on board.

        #11
        Magic Pie V5 has arrived! No issues with shipping this time. :-) I'd just recommend using something a bit more substantial than plastic bubble wrap to support a 20 lb. motor...(hole in the bottom of cardboard box, shaft threads scraped.
        A neat idea I've seen used is to secure the heavy object with plastic filled with foam from a can. NOTE: NOT EXPANSION Type! :-) Fills up the voids, secures the load once cured...


        So my idea was to keep the existing rim so that I have a nice match. Tires and rims.(yep...looks) The downside, more work and the need for custom spokes. Also it's a single rim of aluminum alloy. Will it take the strain?



        Here's where I started.






        Checked the Pie out...REALLY NEAT! I was a bit surprised at the spinning resistance with no power supplied. A bit of auto braking which I'll look into later. Love the cruise function. More on it later.

        So to get going I fabricated this handy nipple remover drill bit from a standard screw driver bit.





        Loosen the nipples by hand a bit, well you know with a spoke wrench... and then finish with the driver.






        CAUTION! As with all power tools care should be taken to not to go too quickly and let the bit slip out of the nipple head! Especially being in such close proximity to very soft aluminum. No need to ask me how I know. :-(


        So removed the existing spokes and hub. I think I may regret not taking off the freewheel first, but my removal tool hasn't arrived yet.

        This is where I had to laugh and ask myself..."what did you get yourself into!"







        Time to measure up for new spokes. After reading up on the subject quite a bit... and using a slick calculator found HERE.
        I came up with a spoke length of 138 mm.

        Here are my inputs.





        If you see an issue please let me know! May use the old spokes cut down to verify...to be continued.



        See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

        Comment


        • Tommycat
          Tommycat commented
          Editing a comment
          Back from the future... The nipple removal tool seemed like a good idea at the time, and made removal really quick. But with the chance of twisting and messing up the slot a little. And having the bit fall off the slot and damage the rim...With these areas sitting right under an inflated inner tube, I really don't think it is worth the chance. Even with rim tape covering most. Take the extra time and wrench from below. What I will recommend is to replace square topped nipples with nice rounded ones!

        #12
        Yep, found a mistake in my calculations...The hub hole diameters are 3mm not 2. Changed. Also added a little more Dishing offset as the 7 gear freewheel pushes the hub a little more over.





        But I'd already cut the spokes down to 138mm. Gave them a try. Yep...just a tad long in a couple spots. Will go 137mm for the final custom cut spokes. But where did I get the trial set you ask?
        Last edited by Tommycat; 11-28-2017, 06:36 AM. Reason: ...added Dish offset.
        See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

        Comment


        • Tommycat
          Tommycat commented
          Editing a comment
          Back from the future... The 2 mm spokes are a little sloppy in the 3mm hub holes... I see where you can purchase spoke washers made to address this mismatch and would recommend using them.

        #13
        Why from the original wheel spokes of course.

        So my thoughts where to re-use the bikes original spokes to get the absolute correct length, and if they worked real well, to use for a bit. Now, not having a spoke thread roller, which would be really nice and easy. I decided to try and re-make the J-ends.

        Fire and a hammer are both available to me. So I fabricated a holding die and fired up the torch...






        Ahhhhh Forged in Fire! After a few experiments got fairly good results such as this...







        ...and after figuring in the required extra length for the mash and bend, cut em to length. Of course the first one I forgot to add the extra...grrrrrr. and one didn't come out well enough. So picked up two replacements from a local bike shop, and pressed on. (also got a quote for a set of 38 (36 plus 2 spares) custom cut Sapin Strong, black, J ended spokes).



        Having received my freewheel tool in the mail, removed the freewheel from the original hub. Yep it was a little harder without the spokes and wheel to hang on to. But with a pull of the electric impact wrench trigger...off she came. Putting it on the Pie was fine. Tried to re-use the plastic chain guard, but just took up extra space, and didn't look that great. The 7 gear freewheel stuck out past the unthreaded part of the axel a tad, so had to add some spacing washers.

        So lacing up the wheel all went well. Some discrepancies in the quality of the final lengths. And stripped a nipple. But got it done.







        After all is said and done, I would not recommend this route to anybody...lol. With the correct spoke calculator inputs the recommended length(s) appear to be right on. And while stretching the spokes during truing heard the dreaded sporangggg of a popped j head. But re-did and re- installed ( a little shorter ) but back in business. Let you know how long they last...
        See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

        Comment


        • Tommycat
          Tommycat commented
          Editing a comment
          It's been over a year and have had no problems with the hand modified spokes. :-0 They haven't loosened, broke, or provided any excitement in all this time. After all I'd heard about spokes breaking, this is a pleasant surprise. Sure I've had to re-true the wheel a couple of times for the stretching. But my biggest regret is that I didn't re-paint them when I had the chance!

        #14
        So...with the battery mounted, motor laced in, and one, perhaps two good wheels...what's a cat to do? Go for a RIDE! Can't stand it any longer.

        Wire nutted the battery wires together. Installed one universal rear torque arm, cruise control, twist throttle, and front brake lever. Holding the wiring harness to the frame with black tape. And away we go.

        Started very slow and easy. Not going to be too demanding on the rear spokes till I get a few miles and a little bit of confidence in them.

        First trip, road a couple blocks and up and down my rather steep driveway.

        Very happy and a impressed with this set-ups performance. Being my first E-bike I don't have anything to compare it too except my 1965 Honda Trail 55 motorcycle. But I would say it may be just a bit quicker, and seemingly more torque than the Honda. The Honda's motor is 5 horse power, 54cc, but much heavier.

        Checked the rear's spoke tensioning, tightening a couple. And added this electrical monitor to keep an eye on things as Luna has not yet re-stocked the BAC-601 LCD panel display. This is a Bayite DC 6.5-100V 0-100A LCD Display.

        Second ride, about a mile around the park bike trail. Voltages good, hardly even taxing the battery. More smiles. Love the cruise control. Re-checked spoke tension...good.

        Third ride, couple miles, bike trail, city roads, and a couple times around the house. Yep really trying to tax the spokes a bit on the rough grass. Yep Pax you are right. When things start to get a bit bouncy, that full twist throttle is difficult to stay even! Will try to tone the response down a bit when I get into programming. And perhaps try to mod the throttle a bit to add mass. Other thoughts...

        The good...Meeting and exceeding my expectations of a 1500 watt, 52volt system. Fire forged spokes holding up well. Rides well, solid and stable.

        The bad... Taped up wiring will be addressed. On rear wheel tear down, found even a very well torqued down axle moving (rocking) in the drop-out. Nowhere for the 7-speed rear freewheel shifter to go...like I even need it. ;-) And I've got to get some sort of suspension or better seat going.

        The ugly... Yikes, haven't got the front caliper brakes to quiet down after cleaning the rim and brake pads. Will try toe-in next.
        Last edited by Tommycat; 12-06-2017, 10:35 AM. Reason: ...corrected spelling .^.^
        See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

        Comment


          #15
          I can't tell exactly what you did with the rear dropout but I strongly recommend torque arms on both sides and lock washer if you can fit them. I used something like this:



          I also inspect my axle before every ride. These motors put massive torque on the axle and any repetitive motion can loosen the nuts. The torque arms double as a wheel retention device if the axle tries to "walk out" of the dropout slot.

          Robert

          Comment


          • Tommycat
            Tommycat commented
            Editing a comment
            Hi Robert, Thank you for your input. Working on a permanent solution now. Questions...? Did you just use 2 of these washers, one under each axle nut? Does the hump go toward the nut or it doesn't matter? And what is the torque specification of the axle nuts? Closest I've found is "very tight"... :-(
        Working...
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