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2017 Giant Stance 2 with a BBSHD and 52 Volt Shark Pack

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  • 2017 Giant Stance 2 with a BBSHD and 52 Volt Shark Pack

    This thread is being started to document the cradle to grave process of building an e-bike using Luna’s BBSHD kit.

    I’ll be honest. I am not sure how Luna Cycle’s stays in business. I searched high and low for better prices. That includes ebay, craigslist, aliexpress, and even trying to buy directly from China. I lived in Taiwan for a couple of years and can hold my own with Mandarin. Factor in the fact that Luna bench tests all of their equipment and handles the defective stuff and it becomes a no brainer to order from them.

    The first step was of course to decide what bike to use. I owned and rode a giant mountain bike in Taiwan for two years. I loved it and it lasted thousands of miles. When I called an LBS (Local Bike Shop) and they said they had a 2017 Giant Stance 2 Large Frame on sale for black Friday for $1011 (almost 50% off), I couldn’t pass it up. Thankfully it happens to be just like one of the ones they sold on Lunacycle.com. This meant that it could be done which made picking the bike easy for me. I got really lucky in this regard. That prayer I said the day before asking Heavenly Father to help me find a good deal might have helped too.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	giant stance 2 small.jpg Views:	1 Size:	307.7 KB ID:	51980
    The next step was the kit. I almost bought the Luna Cycle Anniversary BBS02 kit. I am very lucky that I did not, as it would not have worked for this bike. The bottom bracket is 89.5 mm I think, but has a press fit FSA BB-CFM92 24 on it. I have no clue what all that means. The one thing it does mean to me is that a 68mm BBS02 or a 68mm BBSHD kit would definitely not work. I think that is true of all 27.5” wheel size bikes.

    Thankfully with the money I saved on the donor bike, I was able to buy the 73-100mm (Fat) BBSHD and a lot of the upgrades I wanted. For instance the donor bike had hydraulic brakes, which meant I needed the hydraulic sensors. This is important because when using PAS (pedal assist) you have to stop the motor before switching gears, which you do by pulling the breaks a bit before switching. This is very similar to a clutch on a motorcycle. Then I saw the gear sensor and after reading reviews I decided it would be nice to not have to ‘clutch’ the break every time I wanted to switch gears. Thus a gear sensor was added to the cart.

    This brought me to the 48V vs 52V dilemma. I still had a bit of my hard earned cash left over, so I went for broke and ordered the 52V shark pack. This also meant I needed the Luna Full Color display, because it is the only one that actually displays the battery voltage. The other displays would operate on a 48V regime which would make it difficult to monitor the battery properly.

    I also added a programming cable because I love programming and can’t wait to tinker with the default settings in the BBSHD.

    As I mentioned earlier, I am not sure how Luna stays in business. I really appreciate the sacrifices they make to make it so affordable for us builders. For a mere $1,491.35 + $45 for shipping I was able to purchase the BBSHD, 52V Shark Pack, and all the extras I wanted. There is no way I could have done that on my own separately. I know because I spent months trying.

    One last thing to consider and this is going to be a challenge for sure, is how in the world to mount the BBSHD to the bike. It won’t fit naturally. I believe, but have not confirmed that the inside diameter of the BB on the Giant Stance 2 is 41mm. The outside diameter of the BBSHD is 33 mm I think. Again I am not sure. There are countless threads on the internet and here that talk about various ways to overcome this challenge. I love to tinker so it should be fun. To start I ordered this from Lunacycle.com:

    https://lunacycle.com/pf41-bb-adapte...mm-120mm-73mm/

    I tried to put in 89.5 mm as the size to cut it to, but the field only allows whole numbers, so I put in 90 mm (because they claim to cut it one mm shorter for a round 89mm) and in the notes I begged them to cut it to the right size based on their experience from building Giant Stance 2’s before, whatever that size may be. I also listed my phone number so they could bill me for more parts if needed. We’ll see what happens. Either way, it will be fun which is the whole point of building the bike.

    I ordered the kit on November 25th. Because of the holidays, the crazy holiday shipping crisis that happens every year, the flood of items in customs waiting to be cleared, and everything else going on I expect it to be a full month or so before I actually see anything. I’ll post again when the kit arrives and I do a bench test.
    Last edited by MrScience101; 12-05-2017, 12:05 PM.

  • Paulchef
    replied
    Hi I’ve got a 100 MM bbshd which I bought in order to have clearance on the chainstay of my cube, but the chain alignment is awful so I’m now looking for a frame. Came across your thread after numerous google searches and am thinking Giant May be the way to go. Ok here come the questions, lol did you have any chain line issues? What are the dimensions of the battery, the battery I have will fit in the cube frame but there isn’t enough space to slide it up for removal. I’m getting so frustrated with finding a suitable frame I’m kind of wishing I’d gone for a rear hub motor instead, thanks in advance.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrScience101
    replied
    I just reached the 200 mile mark on my bike and realized I never shared the whole story. You can read about my two other builds here:

    http://www.mrscience101.com/index.ph...ric-bike-saga/

    It's been a fun adventure, but I am hoping to get 3,000 miles out of this current build.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrScience101
    commented on 's reply
    I love my Canadian friends. You guys are always friendly and laid back. Neat hearing about how to handle the cold weather up there. Thanks for sharing!

  • MrScience101
    commented on 's reply
    Awesome! Looks great! Thanks for the picture.

  • Hard Tail
    replied
    Thanks again Mr Science. Motivated by your description/ instructions for mounting brake cutout sensors I invested in the Australian equivalent of surglue ( kneadit) and fitted up my own brake sensor. A lightbulb moment where you discover something has been missing from your life up to this point, it,s epoxy putty. This stuff is amazing. Looks great and works a treat.

    Leave a comment:


  • OneBadWolf
    replied
    Allo! Reading your build with interest. I just started a Giant Stance build, mine is using a large hub motor. My last bike was a Giant, and I'm basically upgrading by transferring my existing setup to the Stance. The Stance has full suspension, and a longer wheelbase, and I think it is going to be much better than what I've been riding. I'm running 2 of the 52V batts, and was having difficulty getting the lower one into the frame. I never would have thought to drill through the aluminium in the battery base, ( Ijust assumed the aluminum was a heatsink for circuitry) and was mulling over some more extreme solutions until I found this thread. Thanks for the info.

    I dispensed with the 27.5 wheels for a few reasons, and am running 26". One of the advantages of the slightly smaller wheels, is the option of relocating my 2nd batt from the topbar, to the forward part of the downtube, opposite the one inside the triangle. A bash plate/ mount for some side fairings might come out of it. It will also move the CG lower, and forward, offsetting the hub motor. My calculations seem to show a 50-50 weight front and rear, but that was without me on it, so nothing fixed in stone so far.

    I ride all year around, here in Canada, and it was a steep learning curve, at - 25 to -30 C, the windchill at 50 kph is significant, so I have designed some heated garments, using carbon fiber as electric heating elements. Past -20, there are no conventional gloves, and few mittens that are any use.

    I tested some tire inserts this winter (kindly provided by Cushcore) and I think I'll put a thread here about them, as soon as I get some time on them with summer tires. For anybody winter riding, Ice Spiker Pro's are fantastic. Appreciate lookin over your shoulder on your build!
    Last edited by OneBadWolf; 04-02-2018, 10:01 AM.

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  • MrScience101
    replied
    Programming the BBSHD.

    This is neat. It's one of the best features of the BBSHD compared to other mid drives. For example, when I first rode the bike, the throttle was set into 1500W boost mode. Meaning if I twisted it all, it was 1500W of power instantly to the wheel. That's wheely mode. First thing I did was go in and change the default 1.1v - 3.3v to 1.1v to - 4.4v, giving it a bit wider range. It didn't help much but at least there was a little bit of variable speed. Thus began a long list of tinkering.

    First things first. There are quite a few programming software downloads out there. Penoff and Luna's being the most popular. Because I bought the mid drive from Luna and it appears that they keep theirs up to date I used their software located here:

    https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...shd-mid-drives

    It worked great.

    Here is what the first page looks like:

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    The default cut off voltage is 41 volts. I have a 52 V battery instead of a 48V battery, so I changed it to 43V as you can see in the picture.

    Current limit is pretty neat. You want a 750W motor? Change it to 15 amps. You want a 1500W motor? Change it to 30 amps. Most of the rest of the current settings are in %, and it is % of the current limit.

    Assist levels took me forever to figure out. There are two settings. I put 0 and 0 in Assist 0. My controller defaults to Assist 1 when it turns on, so I made Assist 0 pedal only. No throttle, no pedal assist system (PAS), just a good old fashioned body powered bike. This is for when I want to remind myself how nice an electric powered bike is.

    I put 1 and 1 in Assist 1. This is throttle only mode. Meaning I can twist the throttle like a motorcycle. The problem is that because of the firmware of the controller I received if I start to pedal, then the pedal assist system overrides the throttle and I am limited to 1% current (about 27 Watts). That is until the throttle is wide open, then it overrides the pedal assist system and off I go. Makes for a weird relationship between the pedal assist system and throttle. Bafang owns the firmware, so until they fix it, it is what it is and as far as I know, there is no way to load your own firmware into the system. If someone knows how to do that, please let me know.

    The rest of the assist levels follow a neat formula. Current limit is fairly straightforward. I usually ride at PAS level 5, which means when I pedal the most the motor will assist me is 750 Watts (15 Amps, because Power is Current times Voltage). The speed limit is motor speed, not mph. At 48V the max 'speed' of the motor is 150 RPM. Thus you could limit the RPM or the current.

    At this point I had to choose weather to control current, or speed. I chose current because I wanted to get some exercise and using current I am able to give myself anywhere from 27 W to 1500W assist. I typically ride at PAS 5, which is 750W. I am hoping this makes the controller on the BBSHD last a long time.

    To use the assist levels 6-9 I had to go into the settings of my actual display and change it from five levels to nine levels. That was a bit of a pain, because I had to look up the super secret way of getting into the display.

    Speed meter type is not changeable, as is the speed meter signals. I changed the wheel diameter to 27 inches so I could get a more accurate speed. If your display only supports KPH and you want MPH you can change the wheel size to a different value like 18 inches so that what is displayed is MPH (even if the display still has KPH showing on it). My display can do either MPH or KPH so I was able to pick 27. Frustrating though, because my wheel size is actually 27.5. I am not sure if that means my MPH is slightly higher or lower than my actual MPH.


    The second page is mysterious and I am not sure anyone actually knows 100% for sure what these settings do:

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    The first three settings are left as they are. Not changeable in my opinion unless you are doing something weird.

    Starting current is what the PAS system starts at and then it 'ramps' up to 100% over a certain amount of time determined by one of the other settings. I am not sure which one it is. I think it is the 'slow start mode'. Not sure if 1 or 8 is the fastest ramp up time. This is good because DC motor starting currents are often five times (or more) the running current. I wouldn't want to constantly have a huge current spike every time I started and stopped pedaling. It would fry the electronics faster. This 'ramp' smooths out the starting current.

    Crank trigger pulses I think is how much you have to pedal before the PAS starts.

    Work mode is a complete unknown to me.

    More to come....

    First screen of the programming software Second screen of the programming software
    Last edited by MrScience101; 02-04-2018, 01:32 PM.

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  • MrScience101
    replied
    Yup, they were a pain to get in just the right position, but after riding to and from work and on some single tracks they still work like a champ with no adjustment from the first install. That sugru stuff is magic.
    Last edited by MrScience101; 01-20-2018, 04:50 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hard Tail
    replied
    Hi Science101. Great article. I recently built a Giant Anthem and encountered many of the challenges you did. I dispensed with the break cutouts because of the susgested glue mounting options but having seen your solution, I'll revisit it. That looks great. Can you confirm the break cut offs are still working well now after a couple of weeks.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrScience101
    replied
    Installing the gear sensor:

    This is an interesting piece of tech from the Czech republic. When I took it apart prior to installation, it was simply a plastic pulley that rotates when the wire is pulled through it. Because it is plastic I wonder how long it will last. Inside the plastic pulley wheel, is a magnet. When the pulley rotates because the wire makes it rotate as it slides against it, the magnet engages the sensor (hall sensor perhaps?) which disengages the motor for about a half second. Its enough to shift at most, two gears at once. When I try three it kicks on before the shift is completely done. When shifting one gear at a time it works perfectly.

    When I first did the bench test I freaked out because unlike the brakes which have a red circle with an ! point in it to indicate when the motor cuts off, the gear sensor has no such indication. In order to do a real bench test I lifted the bike up, had my lovely assistant (wife) twist the throttle and then I pushed and pulled the cable through it to ensure that the motor cut off like it was supposed to. Worked like a champ.

    The first time I attached it to the bike I used electrical tape and strapped it really, really tight to the shaft. Put it all together and then it didn't work! Most frustrating, so I took it all apart and bench tested it again, and it worked just fine. I then pressed really hard on the outside of the case and quickly realized that if you squeeze the plastic together too tightly the pulley inside cannot rotate because it is being squished so tightly it cannot rotate.

    The second time I attached it with a zip tie being careful not to tighten it too tight and then gently put a piece of electrical tape to hold it in place. This seems to have done the trick and it works great now.

    I had to buy a special wire cutter off eBay for ten dollars though because the normal wire dikes I had would squish the ends together making it impossible to thread the cable wire through. The special ones cut and leave it in mostly a circular shape. I used a nail to insert and widen the gaps a little bit to make sure the cable would slide through with no problems.

    To remove the cable there is a plastic screw located on the side of the shifter on the handle bar that once undone and on the lowest gear the shifting cable can be pushed out of.

    After I picked out the location I carefully slide the wire halfway out the tubing (making sure it was well away from where I was going to cut), cut a 43mm-ish size segment out of it, put two new plastic ends on the newly created tubes, and then threaded the cable back through the gear sensor and back down to the derailleur.

    I ended up only using the plastic end caps from the cable shifting kit I bought. It was more of a backup anyway in case I messed up and had to put on an entirely new cable and tube housing.

    I learned that there is a huge difference between the size and strength of shifting cables and housing vs brake cables and housing. Apparently the shifting cable housing has wires built into it while the shifting cable is mostly plastic. The sizes of the cables appear different too.


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  • MrScience101
    commented on 's reply
    Good point calgarycommuter. I have pondered if the way I did it is actually better because you’re right. The only thing preventing rotation would be the friction between the pf41 and the inside cylinder of the bottom bracket. There would be no ‘bite’ on the frame itself to prevent rotation. Maybe I wasn’t such an idiot after all. If I was going to use the 100mm version I would have had to spread a lot of locktight around it to prevent rotation and I’m not sure that would have been enough.

  • AZguy
    replied
    I ended up with 3M VRB tape (stuff that gets used to stick gopros on helmets, etc.) from a customer that uses it to adhere windows on exterior aircraft equipment to stick on the sensors - they aren't going any where at this point...

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  • Calgary commuter
    commented on 's reply
    I'm confused about this length and your review on the PF41 page of Luna Cycle. I have a Giant Fastroad I'm going to add a BBSHD to, and it has a BB86 pressfit bottom bracket, which is 86mm wide. If I get a 100mm adapter will the triangle clamp not have anything to clamp onto other than the adapter? What I'm wondering is, if it's only clamping onto the adapter and not the bike frame itself, then the only thing stopping the motor from turning is the friction between the adapter and the bike frame. That doesn't sound as good to me as what you've done here with the triangle idea, or even the slippery spacers if they're tightened hard enough. Please enlighten me!

  • MrScience101
    commented on 's reply
    Thank you. The build sure is a fun one, that's for sure. The sugru is useful every time I think to myself, "I need some mold-able plastic." A little pricey at 3 dollars a package though. When I first got it I freaked out because the expiration date was just three months away. Then I read on the sugru site you can store it in the fridge for up to a year or more. So that's what I do. I also knead it like bread before using it to start the process a little faster.
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