Rims, Spokes & Hubs...

[theronchaplin]

2016 was the year for converting my Townie to electric (BBS02 & 48V carbon shark battery). 2017 is the year for upgrades and customization. To start, I plan to build (or have someone do it for me) a couple of new wheels.

I want to replace the derailleur with a Sturmey Archer IGH (not sure what speed just yet). This would be built into a 26" wheel with 26x2.5 Maxxis Hookworm tires. I mostly ride pavement in a casual, relaxed riding style. I cruise mostly around the 15-20mph range.

As I begin to source the parts I need, I realize I have some questions I'm hoping this group can help with.

1. What rim brands should I be looking for? I don't need the best of the best, but I want something that's good and solid.
2. Similar question on spokes... Any particular brand or type I should be looking at? I'm thinking I want 12-13 gauge... something a bit sturdier than what I have now.
3. Where should I be buying the parts from? I'm guessing there's a better place than Amazon or the like.

Any input is appreciated! Thanks!

[Dale H]

Have you looked on the Fast Electric Bikes Facebook page? You could go here to get some ideas, maybe join and ask questions. The group was started by Luna's owner Eric, and it's basically a large forum with tons of helpful people. Good luck in your search and ride on safely....

[theronchaplin]

Thanks Dale :) Yeah I've joined the Facebook page and it's crazy inspiring for sure. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Gr8fun]

In the same place. Put 5000 miles on it last year.
Worth an upgrade. I liked the sturmey archer dual drive. Planning on building it with only three usable cogs in the cassette. Getting out of using the high wear smaller tooth count cogs.
Suggest getting a 130 bcd spider and setting up 2 rings. This leaves all 18 speeds with wide differentials quickly accessable. Shifting at a stop. Primarily using igh on road shifting. This should minimize cog sprocket and chain wear with yuge range.
Still debating tires. But 1 1/4 marathon plus is looking good. Excellent puncture resistance. Good wear rating. Rated for e bikes. Low rolling resistance for touring tire. Keeping the off road tires if i decide to do that.
Get a batt man. Necessary for monitoring efficiency checking to see if you need to change or check on something in system or driving style.
I generally drive at 22 mph. But like that occasional high speed burst. Mostly commuting 15 miles and back. With some side trips totalling 40 to 50 miles.
i Like to do some hill trails so the lower gears keeps that power up and speed down.
All purpose bike.
Lunas spoke prices are great. You can get the sx r3 sturmey archer. Mine came last week. on line for under 100$. 32 spoke though.
My rim came used from community bikes.

The new SA 5 speed is getting a lot of good reviews also.

20 ah 52volt luna battery is working perfectly for my needs. The advanced charger can charge it quickly or slower and to reccomended 80% or 90% capacity.
Beginning to look like i waste my time looking anywhere but luna first.
I am not paid to make that statement. I only pay to get the best products at best prices. With fantastic support here. Great community.
Good luck on your upgrades.

[theronchaplin]

Thanks Gr8fun, I appreciate your input.

An IGH is where it's at for me I think. I don't need anything fancy, just durable. Currently on the 7spd derailleur I only use 3 gears (the middle ones at that). Plus as you said, shifting at a stop is very appealing to me.

I really like the Hookworms, both in looks and the fact it's a bit "fatter" than what I currently have. The only mark against them that I've read is that they're heavy. On an ebike, obviously that's not much to be concerned about. I realize I'll have to make sure all the clearances are there. The only thing that might be in the way of them at this point is my rim brakes (well fenders too, but I'm not married to them... been thinking about losing them anyway). Seeing some of the SA options that also have drum brakes is pretty tempting too.

And I agree about Luna. I purchased my kit from them last year and I intend to keep purchasing anything I can from them as I go along. I like the Alex EBike Rim DM24, but I'm not super crazy about the spokes. I like the ones (not sure what they're called) that are 13 gauge at the hub and 14 at the spokes.

Where did you purchase your hub?

[theronchaplin]

I've looked at the Cyclops and they're probably a second choice for me, definitely nice to have options.

And "single butted 13/14ga spokes" yes! That's what I was talking about... sounds like an ideal mix of strong and flexible way to build up a wheel. I'll have to check into Danscomp, thanks!

[HarryS]

Another vote for Saphim Strong spokes, 13G at the J-bend, and 14G at the nipple. Thinner gauge is supposed to allow better tensioning. I get mine from Yojimbo's Garage in Chicago. Around $1/spoke shipped US mail. He's on ebay. I've laced three wheels, and got better with practice.

[theronchaplin]

Thanks, HarryS! Sounds like Sapim is what I want, awesome :D

[Gr8fun]

Brands cycle and fitness. A bit slow. Seems much of what they sell is not in stock. First time i dealt with them. There support is pretty good. Tried to get 36 hole but they could not get it. No info on site or orderimg said what spoke count was.
I had lot of flats last year. And i like fast occasionally. Supposedly the marathon plus Cures both in the thinner tire. We will see. A flat tire is worse than the rain. Especially at higher speeds.
The wider tires are definately a more comfortable riding tire. The braking and gripping the road are reassuring too. They are a bit heavy but not a problem in that i carry my tools and cargo. I need the extra weight capability.
customize according according to your means and needs.
I also have not washed it in a year. Been getting compliments on how clean it is. Thank the rain.

[calfee20]

Well here goes and in order.

#1--What rim brands should I be looking for? I don't need the best of the best, but I want something that's good and solid.

I used an Alex DX32. Back in the forum a couple of other members used this rim on our style bikes and I liked the description. It is double walled with a single eyelet. If Luna had rims when I built my wheel I would have been tempted by their Alec DM24. It is a few mm narrower but for $20 ....wow You should check out my build thread, at least from post #56. http://electricbike.com/forum/forum/...-cruiser/page4

#2--Similar question on spokes... Any particular brand or type I should be looking at? I'm thinking I want 12-13 gauge... something a bit sturdier than what I have now.

I would stay away from 12 and 13 straight gauge spokes. Most all rims are drilled for 14 ga spokes but Sapim does make a special nipple to fit a 13 ga spoke into a 14 ga drilled rim. The S-A hubs are drilled to be compatible with 13 and 14 ga spokes. Spokes need a certain amount of tension to remain tight and not loosen. Loose spokes are death for your wheels. 12 & 13 straight ga spokes may require so much tension that your rims might not handle it.

My new bike HAS 12 ga spokes. The rim and hub is all setup for this. I thought I would use 13 ga spokes because my S-A hub and factory rim is already drilled for this. Then while taking my rear wheel apart I could tell even with my minimal experience that there was not enough tension on the spokes. Several were not even tight. I am sure a couple of hundred miles and that rim would have been creaking. Then I didn't like the factory rim. I is single walled and just cheap. I reordered a Weinmann DHL80 from Luna for $50. This is a very nice rim. It has double walls but no eyelets and it is drilled for 14 ga nipples.

This brings us to spoke manufactures and types. DT Swiss and Sapim seem to be the best with the Sapim being a little cheaper. If you want to build a strong wheel the more spokes the better. I will reference a link. It is a long article and worth reading the whole thing but at least read through "How many spokes" and "Spoke Gauges". http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Finally I think there are only 2 spokes to choose from, Sapim Strong and Sapim Force. Here is a piece from a page
"Sapim have also produced a triple butted spoke known as the Force, although this is not available in the UK. This is butted in a 2.2mm-1.8mm-2.0mm design. Spokes most commonly break at the elbow, furthermore hub manufacturers have increasingly moved towards 2.5mm hub drilling, which means that a 2.0mm elbow can sit quite loosely. The Force takes advantage of the butted spokes flexibility and reinforces the spoke at its weakest point. Being 2.2mm at the elbow the Force will still fit in 2.3mm hub holes. The Force is one of Sapim’s more expensive spokes because of the difficulties in triple butting a spoke. Triple butting has enable the Force to extend its fatigue life by a margin over the Race spoke without adding much weight.

Another other butted spoke that Sapim produce is called the Strong spoke. This is single butted in a 2.3mm-2.0mm design. Single butted spokes possess less flexibility than double butted. However it is more economical and more available than the Force and it is strong option when flexibility is less important. The Strong is the strongest spoke in Sapim’s range and is recommended for very heavy use applications such as tandems, electric bicycles and is an economical alternative for downhill racing." Here is a link to the page. http://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheels...spokes-advice/

[calfee20]

Well it is 3 AM here I will do the hub part tomorrow.

[theronchaplin]

I think I'm sold on the DM 24, certainly will be better than my stock rims and match nicely with a SA hub. And I agree, the more I look into spokes the more I think the 12 gauge is a bad idea, too stiff and bad for the rims over time. I think the 13/14 Sapims are the way to go, several recommendations on this thread alone :D

Seems the hard part is sourcing the hub a the moment... I keep looking at the 90mm since it seems to have better heat dissipation (for drum brakes) than the 70mm but it's difficult to find either one in stock. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about them.

Thanks for all the info, Calfee! It's super appreciated :D

[ykick]

DM32 is very wide (externally) and may cause problems fitting rim brakes, FWIW. DM24 is wide enough for most 2.3-2.5" wide tires.

The Boss about Cyclops is that they're only about $14/ea compared to nearly $30 for Hookworms.

Another unseen benefit regarding 14ga nipples is that "when" spokes eventually start to break at the elbow you can make an emergency repair using practically any old spoke from a standard junk bicycle wheel.

I'll try to find my photo of what I'm talking about. In the meantime, basically start a couple threads in the nipple and then bend the spoke through the flange hole and give it a twist or two to secure and tighten the nipple.

Found it -

[Gr8fun]

Watching this thread closely. Always better to build from other peoples experience and knowledge than from my mistakes and having to do it over.

[calfee20]

DM32 is very wide (externally) and may cause problems fitting rim brakes, FWIW. DM24 is wide enough for most 2.3-2.5" wide tires.

The Boss about Cyclops is that they're only about $14/ea compared to nearly $30 for Hookworms.

Another unseen benefit regarding 14ga nipples is that "when" spokes eventually start to break at the elbow you can make an emergency repair using practically any old spoke from a standard junk bicycle wheel.

I'll try to find my photo of what I'm talking about. In the meantime, basically start a couple threads in the nipple and then bend the spoke through the flange hole and give it a twist or two to secure and tighten the nipple.

Found it -

I love that repair. If I were to build a wheel with a large motor like the one in your photo I would use heavy gauge spokes and scooter or motor cycle rims and tires. http://www.electricbike.com/moped-rims-tires-hubmotors/ The tires on my Electra fat are larger in diameter than 70's era Norton Commando tires. I will have to take a picture of that. Motorcycle tires would certainly change the flat tire issue. The problem is you would be getting away from the essence of what a bicycle is. I think most of the people on this forum use small hubs and mid drives. They should continue using bicycle parts. We have to keep the bicycle in our ebikes.

Once the wattage gets to high or you have a large hub motor you get into the realm of a small dirt bike. Well it is 50 out I am going for a ride............calfee

[calfee20]

Wow what a day! 50s no wind. I was able to bike around 15 miles and stop for as much groceries as I could jam in my backpack. My town has a bike path that borders some of my property and the local plaza that has a grocery store. As a matter of fact it gives me easy access to banks, hardware, restaurants, etc. that are located through the center of town. I don't know what it is but I really enjoy being able to leave my truck at home and do these little shopping runs with the bike.

Oh yeah we may get a foot of snow tomorrow............OH Well..........calfee

[Gr8fun]

Good to hear a good. Day. Almost think better to drive in snow than rain. Not near as wet.

[theronchaplin]

I sprung for this book (PDF) yesterday and would say it's well worth it.

http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

The plans to build a workable truing stand is probably worth the price alone :D

[calfee20]

I bought that book a few months ago. My bad that I haven't read the whole thing yet. There are a lot of full size patterns on his website.

[ykick]

Youtube is a good wheel building/lacing resource too. One thing to remember is that with hub motor wheels, 1 cross probably the easiest of all wheels to lace.

I wish I could say I use a truing stand and micrometer but for my builds its usually an old fork anchored down and wire tie-wraps for runout gauge, LOL....

[calfee20]

I used an upside down bike and some large pinch clamps. While I was waiting for parts for wheel #2 I made that stand to keep busy. The lumber came from scraps laying around in the barn.

[calfee20]

Well lets try to finish your original question.

#3--Where should I be buying the parts from? I'm guessing there's a better place than Amazon or the like.

Search the web find the best buys. My S-A 3spd hybrid hub came from ebay less than $100 with shipping. My Alec rim and Sapim force, triple butted spokes came from http://www.niagaracycle.com/. My recent purchase of a S-A 5spd came from http://www.universalcycles.com/

My S-A hybrid 3spd shifts like a dream and while you may want to get rid of you derailleur with this rig you will almost never use it. Once in a while I will go up or down a cog because of a different riding situation. You should check my build thread around post #56 http://electricbike.com/forum/forum/...-cruiser/page4

My build with the S-A 5spd is in process so I can't give you a performance report for that hub. I got it for the drum brake and the wide spread between the flanges which will give me a stronger wheel. I wanted to avoid the whole hydraulic thing and remember your strongest brake goes in the front wheel........calfee