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  • 1dash1
    replied
    Click image for larger version

Name:	top-city-quad-1.jpg
Views:	63
Size:	550.4 KB
ID:	155878 The EV4 quad e-scooter looks like it might be a fun plaything. However, I couldn't find a seller in the U.S. to get a price quote. Still being sold in Europe, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brando
    replied
    My thoughts about the TReGo product:

    Question about using "fixed" the lower price version and detaching the trolley.

    Not everyone has suspension forks - perhaps more common in EU? Do most everyone have front fork suspension??

    Does this trolley not work well without suspension? Is suspension highly recommended? Or do you just want to sell higher priced version??
    Up selling is of course very well known in the US.

    At least in the US, ~$800 buys a nice (mid priced?) bike.

    random thoughts from a mostly thoughtless consumer .

    Leave a comment:


  • Brando
    commented on 's reply
    TReGo, upgrade your bike

    https://trego-trolley.com/shop-en

    Turn you existing bike into a trike - replace front wheel with a trolley - take trolley shopping around the market?
    For example, ride trike to the market then remove front trolley to shop then put it back on and ride trike home.
    repeat at home

    IF two companies offer similar products the public is often less skeptical - as at least two companies think it is a good idea.

    Easier to sell an add-on rather than a second bike. You can only use one bike at a time - unless your house hold shares.
    Yes, I'd seriously consider this idea vs a trike. compete, license, contract build for them, become a dealer or distributor?
    Much can be gained thru co-operation - but it is more complicated.

    good luck (I'll keep an eye open for this trolley type product available in the US.)
    Last edited by Brando; 10-13-2019, 01:57 PM.

  • Martin_EV4
    commented on 's reply
    For now we have this winter video but as soon as it gets warmer we're planing to make another - more interesting this time. With dry and dusty ground we can try to capture the wash out.

  • JPLabs
    replied
    Originally posted by Martin_EV4 View Post
    Well, OK! That worked for me. Looked smoother and a lot more stable than I was expecting. I was especially fascinated to watch how the dangling key seemed to stay pretty well aligned with the frame, telling me the force vector is vertical as perceived by the rider, with leaning of the bike at the speed shown. So, it would feel pretty natural for leans, I think.

    That's a pretty effective video, but I'd love to see the front end wash out in a turn, with no spill, too. If that's a benefit, maybe show it off...

    Leave a comment:


  • Martin_EV4
    replied
    EV4 Semi-Recumbent... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri5PSo9xpNE

    Leave a comment:


  • ykick
    replied
    Front wheel washout on 2-wheeled motorcycle or any bike arrangement is a legit concern. Reaching the limits of front tire traction (which can change at moment notice - Diesel fuel spill for example) under leaning condition can be difficult to predict.

    I echo my friend who suggests providing more information and perhaps visualization regarding the tad pole concept?

    And if the tread width is no more than the handlebar across I can envision riding this even in my NYC setting between stopped traffic?

    Sure, more components involved but if it can cure some of what ails 2 wheel bikes I can better see the point. Thanks for explaining things in more detail.

    Maybe could be my thing someday?

    Leave a comment:


  • calfee20
    replied
    Originally posted by JPLabs View Post
    OK, high level, initial impressions:

    First glance made me skeptical. The first thing that put me off was the dual front wheel setup in general. Why do that? You need to be good, to make that fun to ride and natural feeling, especially across a range of speeds and surface contours. And it's a lot of work to execute. So there needs to be a benefit from having it. Right off the bat, you are working to convince me it's not silly, just because of the configuration.

    I nearly dismissed it as an awkward riding tricycle thing for old folks who might fall down, but then I noticed all the front linkage. Hmm, enticing, what are the kinematics like, check the video.

    Oh, look at that, it seems to self-lean rather naturally, for the speeds and surfaces shown. Not bad, but not totally convincing, either. The hardware fabrication is really beautiful, seen in HD with good lighting.

    First picture: I think the added structure in black looks like an add-on which doesn't belong, not well represented in this photo. Better in the 2nd photo. Aluminum looks much better than black, to me, since it's clearly metal. From only the first photo, I though maybe it was plastic.

    The photos made me want to understand the suspension geometry, enticing me.

    The video made me want to ride one to see what it feels like.
    -

    My expectations, based upon what I saw:

    I expect it will want to tip on one wheel at speed, isn't very natural feeling, gets sketchy in aggressive riding, and has far from great handling if you 'go the wrong speed in a turn'. I don't think I'd want to ride it around off-camber curves very fast at all. I don't think I'll like riding it.

    These are first impressions.

    Why do this? What's the point of the configuration? What is the benefit? Not needing a kickstand, and not needing to know how to ride a bike? Or, does it corner like a banshee and feel like more fun than a 2-wheeler? If you could express purpose and motion, better, to give some idea in first impression, I think it would look more, well, purposeful. I couldn't get past my skepticism about it being over-complicated for no real benefit.

    ----

    Disclaimer: I'm a mechanical engineer so I often need to understand purpose, and see elegance, to be impressed with a design. This undoubtedly colors my impressions.

    The bike might be awesome, but because of it's potential to be an awkward pointless exercise in over-complication, showing it visually without some mention of it's purpose and special capabilities paints an incomplete picture. To me, at least.

    --

    EDIT: OK, I looked at the website, I still don't see the purpose, except style, I guess.

    Same guy that did the quadracycle?! Oh! I know of, and really like, the Quadracycle. I think I'd love riding that. Low CG, articulated for traction on uneven terrain, corners well, won't tip easily, all that. Looks like a riot and I can instantly see the point with a short video.

    But the tall, tippy looking, tricycle one isn't making sense to me, even after seeing it ridden.
    What if you could graft all of that front suspension onto a tadpole recumbent trike. It would look something like that latest Batmobile.

    Leave a comment:


  • JPLabs
    replied
    Originally posted by Martin_EV4 View Post

    First of all, thank you for this thorough comment. Your first, step by step impression with the product is very useful information to us.

    To explain how we got to this design...
    We designed the EV4 City Quad first and we had a lot of good comments about it. It seems that many people believe that this is the future of personal transportation. We have a collaboration with a french team which is working towards making a cockpit for the quad and homologation for the product so it can be used on roads. There are a lot of meetings in France at the moment concerning street regulations when it comes to vehicles such as this. Anyway, we also had a lot of suggestion from the community to create a bike with the same styling. We had to make a decision whether to design the bike from scratch of use some of the quad components. We decided to use the front end on the bike because it gives a few advantages over a single wheel and because we already had it designed and tested on the quad.

    We used the 2 wheels at the front because they give better handling in general. More traction from the doubled footprint, shorter stopping distance and mitigated risk of falling due to front wheel lock all work towards better safety. These are the main reasons they put 2 wheels on scooters these days. Just like on a motorcycle a front wheel lock results in the vehicle slipping from under the rider. With this design the vehicle moves sideways and the rider moves with it until the bike regains traction. I've tested it and all I can say is that it works very well. So well in fact that when I'm riding on sand, gravel or any slippery surface I tend to push the bike to the limit. With so much confidence that it gives me I'm not worried that I will fall. It's very nice on sand where the front end keeps slipping from side to side.

    I've heard people complain about drag from the doubled footprint and wind resistance when asked for opinion about the design (not actual users). But I don't think that this is an issue. The bike is electric and already has a decent range of around 100 km when pedaling and letting the motor support the rider, not making it do all of the work.

    We've also had comments about the decreased stopping distance. People say the on a normal bike you can easily block the front wheel and fly over the handle bar so what's the point of having more stopping power? Simply because the bike wheys 35 kg. and has a very low center of gravity. It's hard to tip it over. There is also the matter of a PAS sensor which activates the motor. There's a delay in motor deactivation and it the need arises to stop the bike just after starting your ride the extra stopping power will allow you to overcome the force of the motor. Especially when it exceeds the 250W limit for Europe and 350W limit for the USA.

    The ride is also smoother when driving up a curb and in general. It's a lot of fun to ride. The tilting mechanism isn't self balancing so the bike rides just like a normal one. You can lean in corners and I haven't felt any risk of tipping over when riding it. On the contrary, like I said earlier, it gives me a lot of confidence. It's a very nice solution for older people because it's electric and more stable. Older people can enjoy the ride without having to put much strength in pedaling and at a reduced risk of falling. And we all know that falling it a serious concern for older people as it can result in injuries and cause serious health issues.
    OK, now THAT entices me quite a lot. Rider slides with the bike in a front-end washout. Wow, OK, to someone who has broken their collarbone no less than 5 times by 'high siding' after a front end washout, that one feature makes me realize this could be quite a playful machine to ride.

    Your other arguments also seem quite solid. So, you have a very functional foundation for the design. Express that somehow, better, for initial impression, and I think you can add enough credibility to make skeptical people want to take a closer look, too.

    If I ever have an opportunity to ride one of these, you can bet I'll do so. With positive expectations.

    Thanks for the detailed explanation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Martin_EV4
    replied
    Originally posted by JPLabs View Post
    OK, high level, initial impressions:

    First glance made me skeptical. The first thing that put me off was the dual front wheel setup in general. Why do that? You need to be good, to make that fun to ride and natural feeling, especially across a range of speeds and surface contours. And it's a lot of work to execute. So there needs to be a benefit from having it. Right off the bat, you are working to convince me it's not silly, just because of the configuration.

    I nearly dismissed it as an awkward riding tricycle thing for old folks who might fall down, but then I noticed all the front linkage. Hmm, enticing, what are the kinematics like, check the video.

    Oh, look at that, it seems to self-lean rather naturally, for the speeds and surfaces shown. Not bad, but not totally convincing, either. The hardware fabrication is really beautiful, seen in HD with good lighting.

    First picture: I think the added structure in black looks like an add-on which doesn't belong, not well represented in this photo. Better in the 2nd photo. Aluminum looks much better than black, to me, since it's clearly metal. From only the first photo, I though maybe it was plastic.

    The photos made me want to understand the suspension geometry, enticing me.

    The video made me want to ride one to see what it feels like.
    -

    My expectations, based upon what I saw:

    I expect it will want to tip on one wheel at speed, isn't very natural feeling, gets sketchy in aggressive riding, and has far from great handling if you 'go the wrong speed in a turn'. I don't think I'd want to ride it around off-camber curves very fast at all. I don't think I'll like riding it.

    These are first impressions.

    Why do this? What's the point of the configuration? What is the benefit? Not needing a kickstand, and not needing to know how to ride a bike? Or, does it corner like a banshee and feel like more fun than a 2-wheeler? If you could express purpose and motion, better, to give some idea in first impression, I think it would look more, well, purposeful. I couldn't get past my skepticism about it being over-complicated for no real benefit.

    ----

    Disclaimer: I'm a mechanical engineer so I often need to understand purpose, and see elegance, to be impressed with a design. This undoubtedly colors my impressions.

    The bike might be awesome, but because of it's potential to be an awkward pointless exercise in over-complication, showing it visually without some mention of it's purpose and special capabilities paints an incomplete picture. To me, at least.

    --

    EDIT: OK, I looked at the website, I still don't see the purpose, except style, I guess.

    Same guy that did the quadracycle?! Oh! I know of, and really like, the Quadracycle. I think I'd love riding that. Low CG, articulated for traction on uneven terrain, corners well, won't tip easily, all that. Looks like a riot and I can instantly see the point with a short video.

    But the tall, tippy looking, tricycle one isn't making sense to me, even after seeing it ridden.
    First of all, thank you for this thorough comment. Your first, step by step impression with the product is very useful information to us.

    To explain how we got to this design...
    We designed the EV4 City Quad first and we had a lot of good comments about it. It seems that many people believe that this is the future of personal transportation. We have a collaboration with a french team which is working towards making a cockpit for the quad and homologation for the product so it can be used on roads. There are a lot of meetings in France at the moment concerning street regulations when it comes to vehicles such as this. Anyway, we also had a lot of suggestion from the community to create a bike with the same styling. We had to make a decision whether to design the bike from scratch of use some of the quad components. We decided to use the front end on the bike because it gives a few advantages over a single wheel and because we already had it designed and tested on the quad.

    We used the 2 wheels at the front because they give better handling in general. More traction from the doubled footprint, shorter stopping distance and mitigated risk of falling due to front wheel lock all work towards better safety. These are the main reasons they put 2 wheels on scooters these days. Just like on a motorcycle a front wheel lock results in the vehicle slipping from under the rider. With this design the vehicle moves sideways and the rider moves with it until the bike regains traction. I've tested it and all I can say is that it works very well. So well in fact that when I'm riding on sand, gravel or any slippery surface I tend to push the bike to the limit. With so much confidence that it gives me I'm not worried that I will fall. It's very nice on sand where the front end keeps slipping from side to side.

    I've heard people complain about drag from the doubled footprint and wind resistance when asked for opinion about the design (not actual users). But I don't think that this is an issue. The bike is electric and already has a decent range of around 100 km when pedaling and letting the motor support the rider, not making it do all of the work.

    We've also had comments about the decreased stopping distance. People say the on a normal bike you can easily block the front wheel and fly over the handle bar so what's the point of having more stopping power? Simply because the bike wheys 35 kg. and has a very low center of gravity. It's hard to tip it over. There is also the matter of a PAS sensor which activates the motor. There's a delay in motor deactivation and it the need arises to stop the bike just after starting your ride the extra stopping power will allow you to overcome the force of the motor. Especially when it exceeds the 250W limit for Europe and 350W limit for the USA.

    The ride is also smoother when driving up a curb and in general. It's a lot of fun to ride. The tilting mechanism isn't self balancing so the bike rides just like a normal one. You can lean in corners and I haven't felt any risk of tipping over when riding it. On the contrary, like I said earlier, it gives me a lot of confidence. It's a very nice solution for older people because it's electric and more stable. Older people can enjoy the ride without having to put much strength in pedaling and at a reduced risk of falling. And we all know that falling it a serious concern for older people as it can result in injuries and cause serious health issues.
    Last edited by Martin_EV4; 11-20-2017, 02:40 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • calfee20
    replied
    Here we are. Click image for larger version

Name:	honda-neowing-three-wheeled-motorcycle-1.jpg
Views:	308
Size:	262.7 KB
ID:	50848

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  • calfee20
    commented on 's reply
    Did Honda make a full sized bike like this?

  • ykick
    replied
    Reminds me of - https://thekneeslider.com/piaggio-3-wheel-mp3-scooter/ front end arrangement.

    Might be cool for some folks but not my thing. Looks to be well executed though....

    Leave a comment:


  • JPLabs
    replied
    OK, high level, initial impressions:

    First glance made me skeptical. The first thing that put me off was the dual front wheel setup in general. Why do that? You need to be good, to make that fun to ride and natural feeling, especially across a range of speeds and surface contours. And it's a lot of work to execute. So there needs to be a benefit from having it. Right off the bat, you are working to convince me it's not silly, just because of the configuration.

    I nearly dismissed it as an awkward riding tricycle thing for old folks who might fall down, but then I noticed all the front linkage. Hmm, enticing, what are the kinematics like, check the video.

    Oh, look at that, it seems to self-lean rather naturally, for the speeds and surfaces shown. Not bad, but not totally convincing, either. The hardware fabrication is really beautiful, seen in HD with good lighting.

    First picture: I think the added structure in black looks like an add-on which doesn't belong, not well represented in this photo. Better in the 2nd photo. Aluminum looks much better than black, to me, since it's clearly metal. From only the first photo, I though maybe it was plastic.

    The photos made me want to understand the suspension geometry, enticing me.

    The video made me want to ride one to see what it feels like.
    -

    My expectations, based upon what I saw:

    I expect it will want to tip on one wheel at speed, isn't very natural feeling, gets sketchy in aggressive riding, and has far from great handling if you 'go the wrong speed in a turn'. I don't think I'd want to ride it around off-camber curves very fast at all. I don't think I'll like riding it.

    These are first impressions.

    Why do this? What's the point of the configuration? What is the benefit? Not needing a kickstand, and not needing to know how to ride a bike? Or, does it corner like a banshee and feel like more fun than a 2-wheeler? If you could express purpose and motion, better, to give some idea in first impression, I think it would look more, well, purposeful. I couldn't get past my skepticism about it being over-complicated for no real benefit.

    ----

    Disclaimer: I'm a mechanical engineer so I often need to understand purpose, and see elegance, to be impressed with a design. This undoubtedly colors my impressions.

    The bike might be awesome, but because of it's potential to be an awkward pointless exercise in over-complication, showing it visually without some mention of it's purpose and special capabilities paints an incomplete picture. To me, at least.

    --

    EDIT: OK, I looked at the website, I still don't see the purpose, except style, I guess.

    Same guy that did the quadracycle?! Oh! I know of, and really like, the Quadracycle. I think I'd love riding that. Low CG, articulated for traction on uneven terrain, corners well, won't tip easily, all that. Looks like a riot and I can instantly see the point with a short video.

    But the tall, tippy looking, tricycle one isn't making sense to me, even after seeing it ridden.
    Last edited by JPLabs; 11-18-2017, 07:29 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Martin_EV4
    replied
    There is a new movie on YouTube, made it myself ;)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eksVz92rI_U

    Leave a comment:

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