Chain Issue

[designerron]

I found that a dirty chain is the cause of most of the clicking sounds I have been experiencing since my BBSHD installation. It's not a loose motor or lack of grease on the main gear in spite of putting efforts there numerous times in an attempt to fix it.

I started with a 10 speed SRAM PC-1051 chain because I had a new one when I installed the BBSHD. It lasted 1500 miles of trail riding before showing too much stretch. I replaced it with a KMC X10 which lasted only 700 miles. I went back to to the SRAM and got 1500 miles again. I have another new SRAM on the bike now, and I am finding I have to completely clean and lube the chain after only two 20 mile rides on the dirt or it will start clicking. I can't figure out if it is one link or the connecting link that causes the sound. I have a new Sunrace 11-46 Cassette and Luna Eclipse 42 chain ring.

I have been using Finish Line Dry lube and I get about two rides with a wipe down between rides. I tried Boeshield, but it was only good for one ride.

Any other ideas on chain lube or should I invest in a more expensive chain rather than lube and cleaning products?

[73Eldo]

What kind of a time span is this 1500 miles over? That would be a year for me and it would not bother me if I had to replace a chain every year especially if it didn't seem to be hurting the cassettes. I have been running Squirt liquid wax and so far it s been great but I didn't that that many miles on last year so I really don't know how well its going to do for wear. Hopefully will be fining out this summer. The main reason I am sticking with it is so far I have never had to do any sort of wiping or cleaning and you can easily wipe off anything that gets on your fingers when you have to handle the chain if it falls off or you have to change a tire. The regular lubes are so messy. Now if it turns out that i'm only getting 500 miles with the wax vs 1500 with messy stuff I will re consider but so far so good.

[designerron]

1500 miles every 4 months or so. Once I put the motor on I doubled my mileage and frequency. Just having too much fun!

I found the thread with the discussion on Squirt. I think I will give it a try. Other MTB forums say SRAM chains work great with Sunrace, and it does shift smooth. So for the price I'll stick with it for now.

[Retrorockit]

I use the Park CC2 chain "measuring" tool. KMC chains can be.5mm stretched when new. Wippermann ( godawful expensive) start at 0mm. Squirt makes an E bike lube. haven't tried SRAM. I was running Wippermann before the BBSHD. It didn't seem like the time to stop using them.
I'm not real cost sensitive, but reliability is crucial for me. I went away from the quick links and bought a Rohloff Revolver chain splicing tool. It cross peens the pin when you press it back in. Most people probably won't do this. I've broken a couple of the links. Replace often and carry a spare.
if riding in the dirt I would probably look into cheaper options.

[Retrorockit]

AZguy rides in the desert and likes inexpensive KMC chains. We both like the disposable Sunrace casettes.

[AZguy]

For clarity I've been running (even lower cost) shimano ultegra 11sp (HG701)

Been very good for me - last one gave me 3000mi

[designerron]

I have never measured a chain when it's new. Maybe that's why my KMC failed so soon - stretched out of the box. I use the Park stamped tool and replace chains at 0.5.

[73Eldo]

I am using the squirt e bike formula in the summer. I'm not sure if its special or not. I mostly went with it because it was in stock when the regular is often sold out lately. I do sort of wonder what could be special about E bike lube. If its got some superior anti wear properties why would you not want that on any bike? Like I said no science involved and not a whole heck of a lot miles yet. Its the not needing to wipe it down and minimal mess that I really like so far.

[designerron]

I read a review on Finish Line's e-Bike lube, also not scientific, but that rider found he needed to apply it more often than a regular lube. Not what I was looking for. Hope you have better luck with Squirt e-bike formula.

[Retrorockit]

I do apply Squirt very often. My bike has a 2 leg center stand and rests with the back wheel off the ground. Not much work to run the chain through a rag, and drip some lube on it. Some times I'll even give it scrub with a nylon brush.Squirt claims there is a layering effect from the applications.
Be sure the motor is off when doing this. Turning the cranks can drag a finger into the gearing.

[AZguy]

I found that a dirty chain is the cause of most of the clicking sounds I have been experiencing since my BBSHD installation. It's not a loose motor or lack of grease on the main gear in spite of putting efforts there numerous times in an attempt to fix it.

I started with a 10 speed SRAM PC-1051 chain because I had a new one when I installed the BBSHD. It lasted 1500 miles of trail riding before showing too much stretch. I replaced it with a KMC X10 which lasted only 700 miles. I went back to to the SRAM and got 1500 miles again. I have another new SRAM on the bike now, and I am finding I have to completely clean and lube the chain after only two 20 mile rides on the dirt or it will start clicking. I can't figure out if it is one link or the connecting link that causes the sound. I have a new Sunrace 11-46 Cassette and Luna Eclipse 42 chain ring.

I have been using Finish Line Dry lube and I get about two rides with a wipe down between rides. I tried Boeshield, but it was only good for one ride.

Any other ideas on chain lube or should I invest in a more expensive chain rather than lube and cleaning products?

Ahhh chain maintenance on a bike board... almost like discussing religion or politics


I only notice noise from a "dry" chain when shifting so suspect that it's from the cassette in my case...

As an experiment I ran a chain without ever doing any maintenance to it at all, including lube... it still lasted long enough, >1000mi but was totally shagged at that point.. the experiment was to see whether the time it took to maintain the chain was worth it economically even though we understood it would reduce the life... but those HG701's I have been using were $30 at the time and even if only two minutes for lubing (about all I do and with whatever lube is handy) the conclusion was that from a purely economical standpoint it wasn't worth maintaining the chain as it would value my time at well below minimum wage.

OTOH it shifted rough and made a lot of noise when shifting... putting a new chain on it was apparent that while we all know frequent lubing will extend a chain's life (I got >3000mi on the last $30 chain that was lubed frequently) the reasons for doing it aren't economical, it's to improve the shifting... which it does quite a bit!

I don't do anything fancy except just frequently lube with whatever lube is around, applying it directly to the chain while on the bike prior to riding, nothing fancy - just wipe the gunk off the side plates while "wet" if they look dirty. I've used numerous lubes (motor oil, squirt, transmission fluid, wax based shop "specials", boeshield, etc.) and my conclusion is that it doesn't really matter much as long as it is used often... still haven't tried cooking oil but would if that's all that was handy LOL...

I know folks that run two chains in rotation, putting them in pots of solvent, wax, etc. but that's way more fussing with a thing that is always messy than I have patience for

I've read the articles on chain lube comparisons and it seems like most focus on the resistance and I really don't care about that... I'd like to see one that talks about longevity and ease of maintenance instead - I'm not doing tour de france, I'm 100% recreational...


I must be doing something right I suppose... My ginormous 11sp cassette shifts smoothly (albeit a slightly anemic going higher in the top gears due to the oversized cassette - 11-51t), quietly and as mentioned when I changed the last chain it had over 3000mi and only had a total of ~2mm stretch...

Oh well


As always YMMV

[AZguy]

Agree on stretch and "early" replacing

I don't use anything fancy to measure stretch beyond a spike poking out of a rack in my shop - I hang the "chain-under-test" next to a new chain and look at the overall length difference - easy peasy and accurate as all get go

Usually I get 0.5mm (120links or so), maybe a little more right away and then many miles go without much stretch.. then many miles later it will start to stretch and seems to accelerate.. now they say on 11sp I should replace at 0.5% which on 120links is <break out the calculator> is 7.62mm (sort of odd coincidence with all that ukraine-russia fighting) but I never let it got anywhere near that far... 2-3mm and I'm ready for the next one (that's hanging on that spike in the shop)

Point being is that if I replace once it's getting into that accelerating time I'm likely only saving a few hundred miles but definitely saving the cassette and ring... the narrow-wide rings I'm running on the 130bcd adapter can be reversed so I might do that when I change the chain for giggles...

[designerron]

My chain never seems dry, just a bit gunky. It still shifts smoothly. It just that the darn clacking sound is so irritating. It took me a long time to discover it was the chain. I spent way too much time trying to fix it at the motor, and I guess some of the time I may have cleaned the chain a bit and then thought "It was the motor mount!"

[Mike_V]

Thanks Guy!
(& Logical conclusion)
"...just wipe the gunk off the side plates while "wet" if they look dirty. I've used numerous lubes (motor oil, squirt, transmission fluid, wax based shop "specials", boeshield, etc.) and my conclusion is that it doesn't really matter much as long as it is used often... still haven't tried cooking oil but would if that's all that was handy LOL..."

That's why I'm experimenting again with Lucas' red grease.

[Mike_V]

I must experiment.
I will again this year with my 2022 annual chain hypothesis.
This year a new "Prime 9" and Shimano cs-m970 lubricated with Lucas ' Red-N-Tacky ' grease.
Cleaning will brush off grit and wipe, regrease.

Time will tell, but first impression this chain is very ' flexible' and " forgiving " of the chain line angle.

Here's the Pitch:
Unique 9 Speed Chain
◦ Prime 9 chains have internal dimensions that are compatible with modern Wide / Narrow chainrings and similar chain retention to 11 / 12-speed chains. Externally, Prime 9 chains have dimensions similar to existing 9-speed chains. This unique geometry allows for thicker side plates than 12-speed drivetrains which resists stretching over time, increasing shifting performance while decreasing wear on the cassette and chainring.

[Retrorockit]

If you want to do a test I have couple questions.
1- I would like to know the stretch measurement of a new chain. It can vary from 0mm (Wippermann), to .5mm (KMC).
2- What is your chainline? Is it already good, or do you have a "situation" like mine with a flat 50T ring on a BBSHD adapter that sits out pretty far on a 73mm BB.

I like the look of BOX components. But for street riding I'm addicted to 1x8 Shimano Rapid Rise low normal derailers.8 Speed because there are no 9 speed reverse pattern Gripshifts available.I going to be testing a bike soon with a Saint Rapid Rise derailer which is probably similar to the Box stuff in purpose.But a PITA for compatibility, and gear range.

[Mike_V]

I'm Back to the drawing board and using Finish Line wax lubricant on a used flexible dura-ace chain that is one link shorter for my 'new' 2000 Jekyll.
Good Luck

[Retrorockit]

I like the idea of Box making strong E bike sets. But they are BMX/DH oriented. So maybe not in touch with what a street Ebike actually needs.
Box is drinking the the "One gear at a time" shifting coolaid, and offering only trigger shifters. They took the easy way out.
1-I'm running a Low Normal derailer (Shimano Rapid Rise) with a gripshift. This allows multiple shifts up or down even when stopped.
2- I'm running the rear freewheel (freehub) locked out with a zip tie. Up or down shift any gear any time the bike is moving using the BBSHD freewheel.
if Box does everything you need it to do go for it. But you will be locked out of a lot of other options when you do.

[designerron]

Trying to keep this thread alive... I measured my SRAM chain and saw that it was stretched enough for the Park tool to show 0.5 wear. Then I noticed that the connecting link was in the middle of my measurement. Once I moved beyond the removable link there was no stretch. Hmm, so I removed the SRAM connector and tried it with a KMC Missing LInk. No stretch! Wow, I thought maybe that's the source of my clicking noise. Nope, it still clicks after 30 or 40 miles - have to clean the chain, lube and start over. Maybe I'll try a Shimano chain next.

[73Eldo]

How many miles on that link? Was it the one that came with the Sram chain? Since the new link was fine you would assume it was either a poorly made link or that the link was worn and or stretched. I will have to try measuring mine across the link just for fun. My main bikes are running Shimano chains with KMC links.

[designerron]

About 350 miles on the link that came with the chain. I went to my LBS and bought a new one, and then I measured the slot on both of them with a caliper (the slot was the only thing I could get a consistent reading on). Both slots, old and new, measured .265 inches. Then I measured the KMC link which came off a chain after 700 miles. The KMC link measured .255 inches. I'm using KMC links from now on.

[Retrorockit]

I've had a click from one bent tooth on a rear cog plucking the chain as it goes by in the next gear.Usually the derailer cage will kick a little as it goes by.

[jaaklucas]

My philosophy on chains on my bikes and motorcycle is the less gunk the better. Attracts grit which chews up the chain and sprockets. Grease, wax etc. I tried WD-40 only on my motorcycle chain and my chain lasted over 50,000K. Requires a lube more often usually when the chain looks dry. Since WD-40 does have parrafin wax in it(to seal metal and prevent rust,its original purpose) I branched off to another solvent cleaner type stuff. All purpose Teflon spray lube which is also marketed as Teflon chain spray but I figure is the same. Cleans and lubes in one product. Least amount of gunk and man that stuff is slippery!

[jaaklucas]

Knew this would get yall stirred up! This is from Wiki....

WD-40's main ingredients as supplied in aerosol cans, according to the US Material Safety Data Sheet information,^[20] and with the CAS numbers interpreted:^[21]

• 45–50% low vapor pressure aliphatic hydrocarbon (isoparaffin)
• <35% petroleum base oil (non-hazardous heavy paraffins)
• <25% aliphatic hydrocarbons (same CAS number as the first item, but flammable)
• 2–3% carbon dioxide (propellant)

[jaaklucas]

Not that it matters but Wiki isnt the key for finding ingrediants in stuff like this. Its the "Material Safety Data sheet". This is no baloney in case someone ingests it or has a toxic reaction and is federally regulated. Alot of products try and keep their special ingrediants secret. You can also use safety data sheets to find out whats in...brake parts cleaner for instance. Acetone. So buy nail polish remover instead which is alot cheaper!

[AZguy]

Discussing chain maintenance seems to border on discussing religion and politics

FWIW you can use pretty much anything on an o-ring moto chain (nearly everyone uses o-ring these days) since the pin lubrication is sealed up in the o-rings... bike chains don't have that luxury - they need frequent lubrication for the pins... pretty much conventional wisdom for bike chains is that wd-40 is better than nothing (I actually did a torture test experiment running a chain without ever doing any maintenance , including lubing, but that's another story) but not much, mostly just preventing rust... really need something to lubricate those pins and it's simply not made for that and has relatively poor lubrication qualities - just based on "feel" even after the light stuff evaporates it just feels super thin and is likely a very low viscosity IMO (and plenty of others... but back to that religious discussion paradigm) not terribly well suited to the relatively high forces on a bicycle chain pin/bushing...

There are folks that religiously keep two chain, soak them in solvent, use fancy park tool chain scrubbers and put them in melted paraffin... mm'kay.... way too much effort for me with a $30 chain

There are plenty of tests that show "performance" of different lubes but for those tests it's typically about lowest friction and what's more important to me is chain longevity and ease of use (otherwise I won't so it often enough).. so for me I just use any decent lube I have around the shop and do it frequently... I've used transmission fluid (not bad for the task or motor oil in dripper bottles.. typically use more general purpose paraffin based penetrating lubes and have done fine with those - they go on in a minute or so and my last chain got well over 3000mi of very hard use so plenty good enough, at least for me... I've tried more bicycle specific lubes but haven't found them to justify the cost for me - they may offer lower resistance but carrying a big box of 'trons I just don't care about that

I guess bottom line is to do what works best for you and my belief is that as long as you do it often enough it doesn't really matter since chains are cheap


Clearly, as always, YMMV

[jaaklucas]

chains are cheap

My Ebike is still freewheel. For the last 5 years the 11-34t only lasts a year anyways so I change the chain at the same time. That was with a 1000W hub drive so Ill be interested to see how it goes with the mid drive. So far the hill climbing with the BBSHD is amazing. Must be pushing the limit of a regular bike chain going up my local mountain MTB stuff. I see they make Ebike specific chains and I read some of the comments about it on this site. Im loathe to spend money on chains unless I start breaking them from uphill stress which I intend to do alot of.

[AZguy]

Guessing 7 speed? Those chains aren't as sturdy as the 10+sp gear chains but they are very inexpensive...

I've got an 11sp and I just use "normal" (shimano hyperglide, not remotely electric specific) chains and last one was ~$30 but that was a couple years ago so they're likely high-$30's these days... but still not much and I ride really hard, hills, dirt, fast on smooth, etc. and like mentioned last one was barely worn at >3000mi (about 1.5mm overall stretch) and just changed it since I was putting on a larger cassette

I'd just run a "normal" chain and keep taking a look at the stretch and replace before there's much showing as really cheap insurance and for less cogset wear - they wear much more quickly when the chain shows stretch...

[73Eldo]

Wow you must put some KMs on and pedaling at least as hard as any other biker if you are wearing out a freewheel every year with a hub drive bike. It will be interesting to see what happens with your mid drive. Is your mid drive still a 7 speed freewheel?

[jaaklucas]

Yea 7 speed freewheel. I think 7 is the max for a freewheel. 11 to 34t. I like to pedal . My last battery log showed 18,000K over 4 1/2 years. That was on an Ezee 1000W hub motor. I put another 2,000 on that motor with a new battery thinking I would kill that thing .No way, still working good this winter with zero maintenence. The nylon gears didnt make any noise but I could see the wheel bearings were getting worn. So I took the opportunity to switch over to the mid drive. Ive got a 29er and a 42 tooth front sprocket on the way for the BBSHD. Even with the stock 46t Im amazed at the hills Ive been doing with the mid drive. I can see the future will be a big cassette .

[AZguy]

I have a rear hub with 7sp freewheel and realized within months of getting it mid was going to be my world -~2kmi on it

I'm presently running BBSHD into 11-51t 11sp and super happy, >8kmi - did good fun ride last nite - would have done more tonite but more rain on the way =]

[Retrorockit]

There are 8-9speed freewheels. But they have a reputation for tricky shifting because of play in the freewheel bearings, and the tighter tolerance between gears on the higher gear count systems. The problem with freewheels is the RH bearing is not at the end of the axle, but way inside like it was on single speed freewheels. A mid drive will really pull some play into that in the higher grears. I have an 8 speed frreewheel, and I may try to make a support bushing for the outer end to deal with the wobble, but I have other projects going on so no idea whne that will happen. They also bend axles due to the bearing layout. The only reason I'm even thinking of a freewheel experiment is because of a Mag wheel bike I want to build. With laced wheels I'd swap the freewheel out sooner rather than later.

[jaaklucas]

I can see now with a single front sprocket the rear cassette is the key element in the gear ratios. Did you use the same bike frame with the 11 speed and the 7 speed freewheel? I think I could fit a 9 in the rear with a new wheel and hub. Otherwise it is new frame time. Future winter project. Lots of riding to do in the meantime!

[Retrorockit]

7-8-9 spd. are interchangeable on the hubs. maybe 10 also. 11-12 I think are different. Sunrace makes some affordable wide range 8-9 speed stuff, and derailers to match. M900 is a clutch type with a heavy spring. I'm with AZ on tossing the chain and casssette together on a BBSHD. The wide 8 Spd. Sunrace cassette is about $25. IMO 8 speeds are enough for a BBSHD.
Sheldon Brown lets you see what different gear sets can do for you. I solve for MPH a 90rpm in gear units. BBSHD can do 150 throttling.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html

[AZguy]

My 11speed bike and 7speed bikes are different frames but they are similar... the 11sp is much lighter.. I don't think the 11sp will take more room, if it does it's not much, the chains are much more narrow as is the cog spacing on the cassette... but it does require a freehub

[73Eldo]

Other than the rim size what you are looking for is the inside width at the axle. 135mm was the original standard when mountain bikes got popular which was also about the time cassettes got popular. In the last 10-15 years there have got to me a lot more wider options but I think in the world of hub motors 135 is/was still a standard but since hub motors had threaded axles they could just use spacers to fit slightly wider frames.

So once you know what width you need you are looking for something that says HG spline. HG stands for hyperglide which was the first popular style of cassette from Shimano. There are other flavors like micro spline but HG came out in the 80's so its what everyone else copied. There were 7 speed HG cassettes in the 80's but I don't think they have been made for years. Once you get to 8 its the same with up to 10 as long as its the original HG standard. There were/ are others where things don't interchange and I think some 11's that work but if you are in the 8-10 and HG things should be fine. They full words HyperGlide is still a Shimano trademark so that is why you often see HG.

Derailleur may work with more speeds but you will need a new shifter unless you are going with a friction sifter as opposed to a index/click shifter. If the goal is more range you may have to change the derailleur anyway for the range.

[AZguy]

Very good points

Fortunately indexed shifters are relatively inexpensive, even good ones...