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    BBSHD won't stay on more than 1 sec

    Hi
    Have a BBSHD drive I am just starting to test drive. First ride (only a few blocks) okay.
    Was going out again after some mech adjustments. Riding along using PAS when I used throttle briefly. Motor suddenly died along with display.
    Now, when I turn it on, the display lights for less than a second (never get to dash) and then shuts itself off almost immediately. no messages - no time. for them, really
    Have checked all connections. All sensors tight. Can find nothing loose, nothing changed. Nothing is warm. Simply will not stay on. Lights up and dies immediately.
    Battery has plenty of juice - is at 56.8V.
    Anyone seen this?

    #2
    Update - Not surprising no replies I guess as as it turns out I did not provide sufficient data.
    After a process of eliminating pieces from circuit and re-testing, I was able to pinpoint the problem to the Luna Solid State Remote Switch unit I am using to turn the power to the motor drive on and off. Exactly what happened to it or why I do not know, which is bothersome, but it is not remaining full "on" even though it should be. Once the controller begins to draw power through it, it shuts off (or appears to - maybe just not letting much thru - same appearance at outputs).
    When I connect the battery directly to the motor controller,the problem disappears.
    So, need a new on/off switch.

    Comment


      #3
      Hi Muggsy,

      Glad you got it sorted out. Just wanted to mention if you jumper the middle two pins of the four wire SSR switch harness, that it will energize the relay... (to eliminate the possibility of a bad switch) The outer two are for the LED.


      Regards,
      T.C.

      P.S. Sorry Muggsy I remembered we've been over this ground before... :-/ Still might want to try to eliminate your relay? Or is this a different rig?
      Last edited by Tommycat; 4 weeks ago. Reason: Added P.S.
      See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

      Comment


      • Muggsy
        Muggsy commented
        Editing a comment
        Hi Tommycat
        Same rig. I have in fact eliminated the solid state relay in favor of a mechanical one. If you recall I was controlling the SSS with a smaller mechanical relay wired to the m.unit anyway, it is both simpler and more reliable this way.
        So, I simply bought an oversized Omron DC power relay (60A at up to 400VDC) and wired it in instead.
        However, though it cured the instant off problem, now my speed sensor inexplicably does not work again. Won't light up at all anymore. All connections good - nothing changed but the relay. Sigh. Always something, it seems.

      #4
      With the magnetic coil and mechanical contacts, just a reminder about a flywheel diode and/or pre-charge diode if you so desired.

      At least your on familiar ground unfortunately with the speed sensor. :-/ I'd be curious as to the supply voltage to it ( and proper ground for that matter), as it seems to be sooooo particular. (uses the 5vdc regulated power from the controller, as well as to the throttle,pas, and motor hall sensors)

      You get a bonus if you provide the pin-outs for the speed sensor connector, I'd try to get it included on the map. (wiring diagram)

      Just something I ran across...

      https://aushiker.com/bafang-bbs-error-21-fix/
      See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

      Comment


      • Muggsy
        Muggsy commented
        Editing a comment
        What would you recommend for a flywheel diode circuit with a 52V BBSHD? Reverse Zener + resistor in parallel with it? Bout how big?
        You are correct - no supply to sensors. Zero volts at the speed sensor. My brake sensors have also stopped working, and the PAS sensor and throttle. No 5V power to any of them apparently.
        Cannot determine speed sensor pinout w/o voltage to it, of course.
        Naturally, when I looked at the catalog for replacement controller boards,the type B is not in stock. #;>)

      • Tommycat
        Tommycat commented
        Editing a comment
        In Kelly controller manuals they give some recommendations... And I found this article informative...

        http://zeva.com.au/Tech/ContactorJewelry/

        But for YOU! :-)

        https://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...roducts_id=299

        ...well the delay will give you time to find where the 5vdc was shorting out at. :-0 (careful with the new one!)

      #5
      Hi Tommycat,

      Thanks for the info. Helpful as usual!

      Do not have the room for the Zeva device. Also seems like a very complex assembly for making a power switch. Rather like using the Luna SSS with a mechanical relay to turn it on. Am using a pre-charge resistor (10W 500ohm). On the coil side of relay, I learned the Motogadget m.unit ignition output driving it is already capable of handling whatever.

      You seem certain there is a 5V short in my sensors somewhere - but I cannot find any 5V short. Have checked all sensor leads and connectors multiple times over. There is no other way this could happen?

      I have no way of knowing, in fact, how or when this 5v power damage happened - whether this failure occurred back when the display began switching itself off or not. The very first time I used the new relay to turn on the motor, this lack of 5v behavior was already happening. I have found no shorts. And prior to to installing relay, the drive would not stay lit long enough to see/diagnose anything. It is very uncomfortable not knowing what happened or if it will again.

      My reasons for switching to mechanical relay is I have no idea why the Luna/Emotec SSS failed, and I wanted to eliminate any uncertainty. (I also had to use a smaller mech relay to control it from the m.unit anyway). Relays are well-known. I have never used one to turn an EV traction motor controller on, tho.

      I also cannot find ANY technical documents to help with understanding the Emotec SSS in this application. Luna literally has nothing, and cannot find from Emotec, either. I do not like using mystery components.

      Given amount of space I have, I must either:
      - use the new DC power relay with pre-charge resistor
      - go back to use the replacement Luna SSS with old smaller relay to light it up.
      I know the pre-charge resistor bleeds a little power, but seems the surer way to go? What is your opinion?

      Does the Luna SSS delay or prevent the output current surge when it turns on? How would we know?

      Hard to see a delay in getting a new controller as a good thing from my perspective. #;>).

      Comment


        #6
        Originally posted by Muggsy View Post

        Hard to see a delay in getting a new controller as a good thing from my perspective. #;>).


        Sorry, it's hard to be patient with the sun shining and such nice weather.




        Originally posted by Muggsy View Post

        I also cannot find ANY technical documents to help with understanding the Emotec SSS in this application. Luna literally has nothing, and cannot find from Emotec, either. I do not like using mystery components.


        Something here perhaps...

        http://wiki-en.hacker-motor.com/inde...etyPowerSwitch

        I know that the Luna SSR can handle a voltage capacity of 60 volts DC, and a current surge of controllers with less than 1500 uF total capacitance.

        I must admit that your somewhat complicated system with multiple voltages, power sources, different grounding, and controlling switching points have become unmanageable for my brain cells. So if you would be kind enough to draw up a wiring diagram. A bit of work, but in the long run will pay dividends. It would go a long way in help finding why we lost the SSR, erratic display function, and loss of the 5vdc regulated controller power.

        A current listing of your parts and pieces... to get all in one place.










        See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

        Comment


        • Muggsy
          Muggsy commented
          Editing a comment
          Hi Tommycat,

          I am w/o a circuit drawing program. Any freeware or cheapies you recommend? Do not need any Gerber-compatible files output. Just pictures. #;>)

          The Motor Hacker site you link to above is useful - actually publishes what appears to be the Emcotec documentation. 2 pages with fotos.

          It recommends the use of a pre-charge resistor with the solid-sate switch, too. However they show it used on the negative pole side, tho - I usually see installed on the relay (positive side).

          It also recommends using a support capacitor for controllers who have a high startup current? Show it mounted to the outout side of the SSS (aka SPS) PC board.

          So, it appears the output side of this device has the same caveats as the relay does. No coil inductance on the control side, of course.

          Note also that the 60V models being sold by Luna are now outdated and have been replaced by a 70V piece. Have some that do 60, 100, or 140 Amps.

          FYI Luna have told me they have no ETA for getting more of the BBSHD Version B controller yet.

        • Tommycat
          Tommycat commented
          Editing a comment
          "Any freeware or cheapies you recommend?"
          Just dabbled a little bit with Circuit Lab... https://www.circuitlab.com/ Otherwise I just slug it out on Paint.net... ( Don't know what a Gerber file is..?? )

          "It recommends the use of a pre-charge resistor with the solid-sate switch, too. However they show it used on the negative pole side, tho - I usually see installed on the relay (positive side). "

          The pre-charge resistor straddles the contacts which breaks the power circuit. And as the SSR breaks the negative wiring side, hence it's position. (could this be a valuable clue?)



          At 52volts supply, with a compatible controller. I have no worries of operation with-out a pre-charge resistor, or capacitor.

          "FYI Luna have told me they have no ETA for getting more of the BBSHD Version B controller yet. "
          Rats!

          With your Eggrider, is that a wired display or bluetooth? (unfamiliar how it turns on your controllers ignition circuit...AKA 5vdc regulated power)
          Anyway good luck on your wiring diagram!

        #7
        Copy of manual for Emcotec/Luna Remote Power Switch aka Safety Power Switch for future reference.
        Attached Files

        Comment


          #8
          Click image for larger version

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          Many components have been omitted but all voltages shown with connections. Sorry for the trial edition watermarking.

          Comment


          • Tommycat
            Tommycat commented
            Editing a comment
            Wow, that was quick! Is this your m.unit?

            https://motogadget.com/shop/media/do...ual_1.8_en.pdf

            Just first glance thoughts...

            Speed and brake sensors tied into 52vdc and m.unit control ground?
            A 20 amp fuse on the line side of the 12V DC-DC converter... to protect the wire?
            Flywheel diode on the main relay coil a must to protect m.units contacts.

            Eggrider… Bluetooth or hardwired?

          #9
          • Yes, that is my m.unit blue
          • Speed sensor and brake sensor share only data wire with m.unit. No connection of either 5V + wire or - from Bafang harness. Bafang sensor data lines are connected to m.unit input connectors.
          • To protect the converter, which is also 20Amp rated, as well as the m.unit connected to it. The converter, the m.unit, and the m.lock (not shown) are always powered. (The converter actually came with fuse holder mounted on its power input line, and I did not remove it. )
          • What makes you think the m.unit Ign output cannot protect itself when driving inductive load? Seems it was designed for that.
          • The Eggrider is hardwired and works much like the Bafangs do - On/Off, Mode, Level Up/Down buttons. Plugs in to standard computer connector on harness.
            • The EggRider is very similar to the Bafang units in its display info layout - but it is tiny by comparison. It shows me Brake Sensor 'errors' in same way in same place, for example (I actually originally lit the Bafang for the first time with the display/computer that came with the Luna Kit prior to installing the EggRider. )
            • It also has a Bluetooth connection to a cellphone app, which has a bigger display, more functions, and allows quick and easy programming of the Bafang controller - which I have yet to use).
          Last edited by Muggsy; 2 weeks ago.

          Comment


            #10
            Originally posted by Muggsy View Post
            • Yes, that is my m.unit blue

              Ahhhh, good to be on the same page.
            • Speed sensor and brake sensor share only data wire with m.unit. No connection of either power wire. Data lines are connected to m.unit inputs.

              More directly, are you using the brake sensors to disable the motor thru the controller inputs? If so, more detail on the brake switch connections.
              My manual has no "data" lines, just ground to actuate. I'm I missing something?
            • To protect the converter, which is also 20Amp rated. (It came with fuse holder mounted on its power input line, and I did not remove it. )

              Just seems odd... A 12 volt converter rated at 20 amps = 240 watts. Leaving out the efficiency rating for discussion. 240 watts @ 58.8 volts is a little over 4 amps. No protection for the converter there. But I would speculate that the output is protected thru the electronics of the converter... still?
            • What makes you think the m.unit Ign output cannot protect itself when driving a relay coil?

              Knowing what I do about how much voltage a collapsing coil field can produce and the damage it can cause. Just have a concern about protecting an electronic switching device. But the m.unit looks to be already rated for such a spike, and hardened enough to take it. (Hadn't looked into it's specs that close...) But seeing it handles an ignition coil with no problem, no worries, but only on certain outputs.
            • The Eggrider is hardwired and works like the Bafangs do - plugs in to standard computer connector on harness. ( It also has a Bluetooth connection to a cellphone app, which has a bigger display, more functions, and allows quick and easy programming of the Bafang controller - which I have yet to use).
            Got it. Thank you.
            Will be reading up on the Eggrider... but curious, do you need to push a power "on" button to light up the display, and energize the controller? I'd be really interested in your "start-up" procedure, and the sequence of power up events if you have the time.
            See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

            Comment


            • Muggsy
              Muggsy commented
              Editing a comment
              Yes, I do need to push an 'On' button on the EggRider to light the Bafang after turning the m.unit on - so that happens after the 52V power relay is already closed, as that happens automatically when I unlock it at the Ign input with the m.lock key fob. So, probably no capacitive surges, but have pre-charge resistor anyway.

              The brake sensors do seem to be a suspicious spot (they are not sensors just switches).
              There are actually two brake switches, as this is a trike. 2 ea Magura MT5e hydraulic calipers with HIGO switches built in at the factory. Simple brake signal switch.

              The Bafang brake harness connector has three lines - Gnd, +5V, and brake signal (apparently expecting a powered hall sensor). I incorrectly referred to 'signal' as 'data' (I am an IT pro).
              BTW same pinout used on Bafang speed sensor - Gnd, +5V, and speed signal.

              I am in fact using those mt5e switches to do 2 things - to cutoff the Bafang via its 2 brake harness connectors, and to light up my brake lights(via m.unit brake input).
              I have had custom HIGO-connector cables/adapters built for this purpose by e-bike technologies.
              - The cable coming from the Magura is first split in two by a Y adapter.
              - One of the adapter outputs from each side then has a 2-pin to 3-pin adapter on it (the +5V on the Magura side of the adapter is unconnected), which then has a cable connected that plugs into the Bafang harness brake HIGO connectors.
              - The other cable coming out of the Y adapter on each side is first routed to a 2-pin HIGO Y adapter that joins them into 1, and then a 2 conductor cable goes on to my m.unit Brake input terminal. Only the one (the one that is labelled the Bafang sensor) cable conductor is connected - the other is NOT connected to common 12V ground (chassis).

            #11
            Originally posted by Muggsy View Post
            So, probably no capacitive surges, but have pre-charge resistor anyway.
            The controller will charge it's capacitors the minute full battery voltage is applied or available. (resistor) And unless you unplug the battery will stay that way with the resistor bypassing the relay contacts.



            Originally posted by Muggsy View Post
            The brake sensors do seem to be a suspicious spot


            +1...
            If I follow your wiring description... both electronic signals, controller brake, and m.unit brake are tied together? With both using the controller's ground to pull both signals low?
            Even though they both have different voltage supplies (controller-5vdc regulated from 52 volt battery input, and m.unit 12 volt from step down converter) With separate grounds that are not connected?
            If I have that right, is this good or acceptable? Curious to know what the voltage of the m.unit brake signal is. On my Pie controller it's 3.037 vdc. Suspecting differences between the two.

            This thread discusses the issue of adding a brake light circuit tied to the electronic brake circuitry of the Bafang controller. Food for thought, although I was not satisfied with it's, to me, lack of resolution.

            https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...t-to-try/page3



            Originally posted by Muggsy View Post
            BTW same pinout used on Bafang speed sensor - Gnd, +5V, and speed signal.


            Is this as in they both use three wires with the same type functions. or they both use the exact same pinout on the connector as the brake connector shown in the diagram below... or both?







            See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

            Comment


              #12
              You are correct - the two grounds are effectively being mixed just by sharing common brake signal. Not good.
              The Bafang Speed Signal line is also similarly shared by Bafang harness and m.unit Acc 2 input.

              I will eliminate this sharing, so only place where 52Vand 12V touch is the 12V DC-DC converter inputs. So, I need to have separate brake and speed signals (or maybe not have one for one of the controllers - not sure why I need a brake sensor to keep me from having power on when I brake anyway)).

              Presently, I have this:
              • Brake switches: As this is a delta trike, I have two Magura front brake switches (and none on rear brake).
                • I can either disconnect both from Bafang, or leave one on Bafang and one on m.unit (latter won't light brake light when I use trike 1 brake drag steer on downhill using brake on side not connected to m.unit).
              • Speed sensors: Also presently two already - a Bafang mag sensor and a Garmin sensor strapped to the wheel hub both on left front - but Garmin is wireless not wired. The mag sensor that comes with the m.unit has a tiny glue-on magnet and the sensor is just a threaded M4 shaft for which I have no hole so I will need to make a mount I guess. The m.unit speed input is not strictly required, as I have other odometer, but it does allow for the cancellation of turn signals by distance traveled after stop. It will also do cancel by time delay, so maybe I can try that.
              Now I need to wait some time until new BBSHD controllers come in before I can put theory to the test. If the only physical connection of 52V and 12V buses is via the 12V DC-DC converter, I think it will be fine. Now I just need to find somewhere to get the trike to hold steady speed at 50kmh to calibrate the m.unit speed sensor.

              And the Bafang sensor will require a separate calibration run, as will the Garmin. Too many speed sensors.

              Comment


                #13
                Originally posted by Muggsy View Post

                I will eliminate this sharing, so only place where 52Vand 12V touch is the 12V DC-DC converter inputs. So, I need to have separate brake and speed signals (or maybe not have one for one of the controllers - not sure why I need a brake sensor to keep me from having power on when I brake anyway)).

                Sounds like a good plan to eliminate the sharing!

                But I've seen throttles go wonky and stick the motor on causing injury when the brake cutout was not used, and personally a near disaster when letting an ebike newbie try mine and their losing the concept of letting the twist throttle return to off to stop. Thankful for the brake cutout switches!!!! :-O Full disclosure, these where hub motor installs. But just sayin.



                I can either disconnect both from Bafang, or leave one on Bafang and one on m.unit (latter won't light brake light when I use trike 1 brake drag steer on downhill using brake on side not connected to m.unit).

                Seen this done... using one for coast reduction with no brake light... I was thinking more along the lines of using a small, perhaps 12 volt coil dpst switching relay, using the converter's 12 volts and switching both sensing lines separated to their respective grounds using both brake switches in parallel to energize the coil. Too much? :-)
                Hopefully controller will be in soon.
                See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

                Comment


                • Muggsy
                  Muggsy commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Too much.
                  Will do the one switch to each controller input route, and leave the speed sensor off the m.unit for now and use a timed shut-off for the turn signals instead of distance.
                  I actually have a 180mm rear wheel disc brake with a drag brake handle to use on downhills to scrub speed. Sometimes going downhill I will also drag one of the front brakes to turn and scrub speed simultaneously, if the downhill has a big, broad, sweeper that will work with. I would actually prefer the brake light come on in that instance, actually, but it will now only on right brake (left goes to Bafang).
                  I have actually done this already - was very easy because of HIGO connector cables I am using (I just removed the Y splitters and 2 of the 4 cables), and re-programming the m.unit turn signals literally took only about 30 seconds.
                  Re-doing a few wire ties was the biggest job.
                  Weeks yet before more controllers tho, I was told.
                  However last of build otherwise done this weekend. Does not move well, tho.
                  Weighs 90+ lbs. and has no PAS right now. Personally, I cannot make it go uphill, so, it waits. #;>)

                #14
                Have discovered that a Type A controller can be used with my newer motor with Blade connectors. So I ordered one. Will likely receive early next week.

                Meanwhile, I have seen a different behavior on shutdown since having the relay with the pre-charge resistor. If I leave the EggRider 'On" and turn the bike off as before with the RFID fob, the EggRider display stays on. Did not used to. Now it not only does not shut off, it will subsequently refuse to shut off even if I press the Off button on the EggRider directly, repeatedly. In order to turn it off.
                I must firstuse the RFID fob again to unlock the "ignition" so the relay powers up and closes. Then if I press Off on EggRider it Turns Off.
                So now I must remember to turn off the EggRider prior to using the key.
                I presently have a 500 Ohm 20 Amp pre-charge resistor. Think it is possible to change such that the controller cap bank still remain charged, but the EggRider turns off when power is cut to it again?

                Comment


                  #15
                  Interesting problem. Too much resistance and you don't have enough amperage to switch the latching electronic relay. Will more resistance "starve" the display enough to shut off? Or damage it? Too little resistance and you waste battery power, and perhaps defeat it's purpose. How often do you disconnect the battery?

                  Just a data point... the Kelly controller recommends a 1k/10watt resistor.

                  And having to manually turn the display on/off seems to spoil some of the fun of having the m.unit!

                  The Eggrider seems to use the same power latching circuitry as say a KT-LCD3 or a typical Bafang display. Switching battery power from the positive battery voltage in pin, to the power pin for the controller actuation pin.(power lock)
                  Although I know the pin-outs are different. See... http://california-ebike.com/wp-conte...2020180714.pdf
                  I don't know if powering directly to the power lock pin would activate the display directly or would harm the display.

                  I've seen someone do it (turn on and off automatically) with the magic of electronics... but that sounded "too much" :-)

                  If push comes to shove, I'd probably just forget the resistor and take my chances with the wear of the relay's contact points. Or put a SSR back in, still can't figure out how that went bad. Any ideas?
                  See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

                  Comment

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