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  • #16
    Np,
    I agree, at the end of the day you can crunch all the numbers you want, but when you throw the switch if it doesn't work, it doesn't work...

    So when you mean it handles funny, that is without motor I assume?

    The washers were the first thing I had at hand in large quantities... and I needed something that was a perfect wrap around for the inner threaded piece so I tried them and got fairly decent results. I would've gone to a thick spacer or bolt spacer should've the washers not hold for my application but they worked. I also did the side plate modification (along with washers, more like thick spacers) for the Trike so yes, the plate mod is more robust no doubt about it.

    G.
    Alpha One 6000W tadpole e-Trike (Cyclone): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
    Alpha Two Cyclone 3000W tadpole e-Trike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkakVw8yY8E
    Electric Cyclone 3000W eBike "power mod": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

    Comment


    • #17
      I apologize, I didn't even mention the bike make/model. Was in the midst of making a post over at endless-sphere and lost track of my thoughts.
      To save from trying to explain the steering issue with a bunch of words, perhaps a picture can speak for me... (please refer to image)
      This is a 1996 ProFlex Beast. One of the first and pioneering full suspension MTB. Was a $1800 bike back in the day. Mostly made in USA.
      Reading over a lot of opinions and bike shop owners reviews, it seems that this bike gave you the impression that it would throw you over the handlebars. At least that is what a few have said.

      I think the bike has a much shorter wheelbase (do bikes have that?) than many other bikes. You feel like you are sitting really close to the handle bars.
      Like I said earlier, I just picked it up tonight. Rode it for a few mins when I got home. Tomorrow I will get a better look at it.

      You see how the frame is designed? I would like to see if I can fit the motor above the crank. If it fits, it will be a very snug fit. I imagine it will only help with stability even more.
      What I would like to get is some measurements of the motor itself, and some measurements of the mounting bracket.
      On the mounting bracket, it would be neat to have the measurement from the center of the crank hole to the closest point on the motor.
      I suppose I could make some longer brackets if it comes to that. Not something I really want to do, but will if I have to.

      Comment


      • #18
        Yeah,

        You could undoubtedly get the motor into the triangle. The length from BB center to motor center is about 7". The standard aluminum bracket may or may not allow it, as it probably depends on if the the four corner points on the motor hit the tubes. But, yeah, it looks doable. I mean, I see room in the triangle for mounting the motor, the battery and the controller too. Wheeeee!

        But that bar stem so far forward and low does seem a bit much.

        Comment


        • #19
          Nothing to apologize for,

          Based on the picture it looks like the motor might fit in there... and I am not an expert in bikes or bike frames, etc, so I can't really say if its the right dimensions and whatnot... but the motor looks like it has room in the triangle.

          G.

          Originally posted by RageNR View Post
          I apologize, I didn't even mention the bike make/model. Was in the midst of making a post over at endless-sphere and lost track of my thoughts.
          To save from trying to explain the steering issue with a bunch of words, perhaps a picture can speak for me... (please refer to image)
          This is a 1996 ProFlex Beast. One of the first and pioneering full suspension MTB. Was a $1800 bike back in the day. Mostly made in USA.
          Reading over a lot of opinions and bike shop owners reviews, it seems that this bike gave you the impression that it would throw you over the handlebars. At least that is what a few have said.

          I think the bike has a much shorter wheelbase (do bikes have that?) than many other bikes. You feel like you are sitting really close to the handle bars.
          Like I said earlier, I just picked it up tonight. Rode it for a few mins when I got home. Tomorrow I will get a better look at it.

          You see how the frame is designed? I would like to see if I can fit the motor above the crank. If it fits, it will be a very snug fit. I imagine it will only help with stability even more.
          What I would like to get is some measurements of the motor itself, and some measurements of the mounting bracket.
          On the mounting bracket, it would be neat to have the measurement from the center of the crank hole to the closest point on the motor.
          I suppose I could make some longer brackets if it comes to that. Not something I really want to do, but will if I have to.
          Alpha One 6000W tadpole e-Trike (Cyclone): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
          Alpha Two Cyclone 3000W tadpole e-Trike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkakVw8yY8E
          Electric Cyclone 3000W eBike "power mod": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

          Comment


          • #20
            Yeah, Gman, that is another somewhat significant benefit of a Cyclone over a Bafang mid-drive, in how (with or without modification to a simple bracket) it can be more easily fitted into some typical frame triangles, since it's not bounded to the bottom bracket spindle like the Bafang. Otherwise, I'd probably recommend the Bafang for most users looking to get a somewhat plug-and-play mid-drive installation.

            Comment


            • #21
              That is one serious limitation, agreed, but the biggest one in my book is the lack of RPM, and with a 110 max crank RPM that to me is synonymous of a chain stretcher tool... I cringe every time I hear someone bragging about their 30 mph BBSxx eBike.... usually achieved on a 42T-11T combo... I can feel the pain of those poor 5 teeth (of the 11T cog) getting tortured with over 400 footpounds of torque.. and the chain, which usually hasn't been lubed in like 3 years, also making some painful metal ultimate-stress-failure sounds... Heck the mighty mini sounds like the mightiest chain stretcher of all times... if a 42 was bad... a 32T with 11T cog... ouch, talk about painful sounds... no wonder why mid drives get such a bad reputation for stretching chains and eating chainrings and cassettes...

              G.
              Alpha One 6000W tadpole e-Trike (Cyclone): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
              Alpha Two Cyclone 3000W tadpole e-Trike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkakVw8yY8E
              Electric Cyclone 3000W eBike "power mod": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

              Comment


              • #22
                Hmm, that is an interesting point. And to think that I had once considered mounting one of the newer Milwaukee Fuel drills, with a gear welded to bmx rear sprocket, chucked up in the drill, running the drill in 1st gear (550rpm), then driving the smallest gear on the 3 speed crank with a chain between the 2.
                Yeah, it was a dream. ...and I actually tried it. It ripped the drill right off the downtube, splitting my sculpted 2 piece wood clamp that I had attached to the 2 mountpoints for the waterbottle cage. LMAO
                This was a few years ago. Didn't really expect it to work. Was just goofing off for the h3LL of it.
                Picture a guy trying to ride one-handed as he reaches down to throttle the bike with the trigger of the drill... oh good times :D

                Come up with a way to stabilize that! hahahaha
                So yes, I very much understand your point of "high torque" failure. 1st hand experience :D :D :D

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yes, and if you come to realize that high RPM operation is, in fact, the desired way to achieve power on these low strength systems (bikes), you'll have a very pleasant Cyclone experience...

                  Make sure you enable mode #3 on the controller to get the max RPM, which should be about 210 crank RPM at 48V and ~350 crank RPM at 72V with a 14T motor pinion and a 44T motor-crank chainring.

                  G.

                  Originally posted by RageNR View Post
                  Hmm, that is an interesting point. And to think that I had once considered mounting one of the newer Milwaukee Fuel drills, with a gear welded to bmx rear sprocket, chucked up in the drill, running the drill in 1st gear (550rpm), then driving the smallest gear on the 3 speed crank with a chain between the 2.
                  Yeah, it was a dream. ...and I actually tried it. It ripped the drill right off the downtube, splitting my sculpted 2 piece wood clamp that I had attached to the 2 mountpoints for the waterbottle cage. LMAO
                  This was a few years ago. Didn't really expect it to work. Was just goofing off for the h3LL of it.
                  Picture a guy trying to ride one-handed as he reaches down to throttle the bike with the trigger of the drill... oh good times :D

                  Come up with a way to stabilize that! hahahaha
                  So yes, I very much understand your point of "high torque" failure. 1st hand experience :D :D :D
                  Alpha One 6000W tadpole e-Trike (Cyclone): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
                  Alpha Two Cyclone 3000W tadpole e-Trike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkakVw8yY8E
                  Electric Cyclone 3000W eBike "power mod": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by gman1971 View Post
                    Make sure you enable mode #3 on the controller to get the max RPM, which should be about 210 crank RPM at 48V and ~350 crank RPM at 72V with a 14T motor pinion and a 44T motor-crank chainring.
                    Since you mentioned that, I have some questions about the controller that comes with the Luna kit.
                    I am contemplating buying two 36v batteries and running them parallel for 72v. Reason for buying 2 is to be able to use them as 72v or 36v (power or range)
                    What I would like to find out from people with actual experience with the controller is if it will run on 36v. The Luna batteries I am looking at are 17ah at 30amps. So I would have 72v 17ah 30amp or 36v 34ah 60amp configuration available.

                    Here is a link to my build thread on ES if you care to have a look: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...88779#p1188779
                    More details of what I am trying to accomplish explained there.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Stupid CrapFox crashed so I lost my elaborate response.

                      In short NO.

                      1) Don't run 20S, it will blow the controller as it is rated MAX 80V, 84.5 is more than 80.
                      2) Don't do the series parallel swap, this is not an IC motor with a 100 shot of NOS... doesn't work that way, the amount of energy stored in the batteries is the exact same regardless of series/parallel configuration
                      3) The packs are rated at 30 amps, worthless for this kit, the BMS will cut all the time. Do not cheap out on this. Get the best pack you can afford, single pack. That is.
                      4) 18650 packs are large and heavy, so expect a sizeable pack that might not t fit easily in the triangle; so it will require some tinkering around. That will also affect handling of the bike too.
                      5) Since you want to go fast, get x3 6S 12,000 LiPo packs, and a charger, 400 bucks on Hobbyking, run these on 18S 12,000 which will give you 900 Wh total energy and about 25 mile range at 35 Wh / mile on throttle only. Plus they will be fairly manageable and fit anywhere.
                      6) Nothing you do on the stock Cyclone controller is going to get you to 50 mph on that bike on the flats without some serious tailwinds. To hit 50 mph you need close to 5 kW without headwind, and no amount of cells is going to deliver you that kind of power. The difference between 18S and 20S @ 40 amps is a mere 400 Watts, and when riding at 40 mph those mere 400W are a fart in a windstorm... so moral of the story, run 18S max and be safe.

                      G.
                      Alpha One 6000W tadpole e-Trike (Cyclone): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
                      Alpha Two Cyclone 3000W tadpole e-Trike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkakVw8yY8E
                      Electric Cyclone 3000W eBike "power mod": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

                      Comment


                      • #26


                        Originally posted by RageNR View Post

                        I would like to push this motor to hopefully upwards of 1800 watts. Closer to 2500 if my electronics will allow.
                        I'll just list what I am hoping to achieve:
                        - 72v Nominal (84v fully charged?)
                        - Dual Voltage setup 36v/72v (i will expand on this later)
                        - If dual voltage does not work out then 60v triangle pack
                        - 50+mph. Hoping to achieve 55-60mph
                        - Range? Have no idea. Reason for dual voltage setup. 30+miles on 72v would be nice
                        - Retain at least some of the MTB suspension travel
                        - Stealthy as possible
                        - Mild mode + H4UL A$$ mode
                        - Maybe a nice 4k 17in and bluetooth hometheather soundbar

                        .
                        -No, it will blow the controller. Max 75.5 fully charged, or 18S LiPo, or 18S 18650 cells. Not 20.
                        -No, that doesn't do anything. Your packs are not capable of doing 36V anyways, and the controller has a mode switch built in already.
                        -Yes, make sure is at least 40 amp capable. I think you'll like this pack if 60 amps or more..
                        -Not possible on 3000W with an upright without aero-work, I can barely hit 60 mph on my aero-trike with 5.2 kW, you'll hit 50 mph only with a tailwind on a step downhill (as I've done on my upright eBike) Expect low 40s top end.
                        -25 miles range on motor only would be very optimistic and not at 40 mph cruising, more like @ 20 mph.
                        -The Cyclone will scream when you punch it so it wont be stealth, it will be silent if you keep it low on the throttle. Large battery will make it very hard to conceal. The motor is huge as well, so hard to conceal that.
                        -The mode switching is already built-in into the controller, so no need for voltage shenanigans or other snake oil contraptions.
                        -Up to you; but it might look like the "Plywoodmobile" rolled on duct tape with that much crap hanging from it.

                        I am not bashing your hopes, I am just being realistic after building two Cyclone mid drives and working on my 3rd one as I type this. I know from experience what these can do (and what they cannot do)

                        G.
                        Last edited by gman1971; 05-24-2016, 07:23 PM.
                        Alpha One 6000W tadpole e-Trike (Cyclone): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
                        Alpha Two Cyclone 3000W tadpole e-Trike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkakVw8yY8E
                        Electric Cyclone 3000W eBike "power mod": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          After discussing it a bit in the other thread, where I observed I could pull my chain away from my sprocket, I too was pretty worried about my BBSHD chain life. I have 280 miles on a KMC ebike chain. So today I checked it against a 6" caliper. I can't see any stretch yet. There might be a few thousandths but it's actually not bad for wear so far. 42T & 11-42.

                          Originally posted by gman1971 View Post
                          That is one serious limitation, agreed, but the biggest one in my book is the lack of RPM, and with a 110 max crank RPM that to me is synonymous of a chain stretcher tool... I cringe every time I hear someone bragging about their 30 mph BBSxx eBike.... usually achieved on a 42T-11T combo... I can feel the pain of those poor 5 teeth (of the 11T cog) getting tortured with over 400 footpounds of torque.. and the chain, which usually hasn't been lubed in like 3 years, also making some painful metal ultimate-stress-failure sounds... Heck the mighty mini sounds like the mightiest chain stretcher of all times... if a 42 was bad... a 32T with 11T cog... ouch, talk about painful sounds... no wonder why mid drives get such a bad reputation for stretching chains and eating chainrings and cassettes...

                          G.
                          Fabrication is fun! Build something today. Show someone. Let them help. Inspire and share. Spread the desire.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I managed to get 2600 miles out of 10-speed chain running a 3 kW mid-drive, pushing 1500 watts average @ 30 mph every day for 3 months in the frozen winter of Wisconsin, with salt and all kinds of chain "killing" crap on the road...

                            G.
                            Last edited by gman1971; 05-28-2016, 07:52 AM. Reason: Lets keep this focused on the Cyclone.
                            Alpha One 6000W tadpole e-Trike (Cyclone): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
                            Alpha Two Cyclone 3000W tadpole e-Trike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkakVw8yY8E
                            Electric Cyclone 3000W eBike "power mod": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Doing some research on the Turnigy Multistar 20ah and 16ah packs. I've been up all night, so I will be back later with what I am thinking through.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by RageNR View Post
                                Doing some research on the Turnigy Multistar 20ah and 16ah packs. I've been up all night, so I will be back later with what I am thinking through.
                                The 20,000 might be too big for your application, unless you want to for 12S LiPo, I would look into the 12,000, which are much more compact than either of these other two sizes (and available at HK, since everything is always out of stock on that darn place)

                                G.
                                Alpha One 6000W tadpole e-Trike (Cyclone): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
                                Alpha Two Cyclone 3000W tadpole e-Trike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkakVw8yY8E
                                Electric Cyclone 3000W eBike "power mod": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

                                Comment

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