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Help with tensioner on Cyclone, Chain keeps jumping off

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    #16
    Don't worry, philtahu, about the delayed responses. It's good you've got other things to do with your life besides monitor forum posts!

    Now, those two sets of holes you see, are so the same mounting-brackets can be used for different width bottom-brackets. So, I am pretty certain that with the lower-holes on one side, upper-holes on the other, what you have is correct. In any case, the motor should be sitting perpendicular to the frame tubing (parallel to the bottom-bracket), not at an angle. Because of the wide-angle lens on your camera, the angles are difficult for me to see very precisely in the photos. But if you had the motor in the wrong holes, I think the incorrect angle would be readily apparent to you.

    Sometimes, I find it is reassuring to verify things like this. Sometimes I don't trust what it is my own eyes seem to be telling me. Whether or not your motor is "crooked" could be verified simply with a spirit-level. To do this, I'd first get the bike propped perfectly straight up (in the vertical axis), using the spirit-level to verify; then I'd check the motor--to see if it is level side-to-side (in the horizontal axis). If it's good--I'll know right away I'm using the correct mounting-bracket holes!

    With a little patience, you should be able to loosen that new half-link (as I tried to describe). Once you've got that chain in place, you might be good to go!

    I swear you're on the home-stretch here, philtahu.

    Best of luck!

    tklop
    Last edited by tklop; 05-12-2018, 12:13 AM. Reason: for clarity

    Comment


      #17
      I feel the pain as I have this same problem, my chain keeps coming off too. Everything on mine runs fine stays on then when I actually go to hop on and ride the chain pops off only when I'm on it. I haven't gone a full day riding it keeps coming off. Local bike shop uselss and I've done all I can think of driving me insane to point throw the damn thing away.

      Comment


      • tklop
        tklop commented
        Editing a comment
        I am sorry to hear you are having trouble too, Valmek.

        I cannot say for sure I know what your problem is for sure, but I have a suspicion:

        If your kit is new, and you're using all new chains, but you're still using your old rear-sprocket, that might be causing your problem.

        Even if everything is all the correct sizes and should be compatible; if that old rear-sprocket is worn (and it might be--even if it doesn't look all that worn at all), the new chain will not stay put. This will be especially noticeable under power, while everything might seem fine freewheeling up in the air.

        If that isn't your problem, I'd go back and try the suggestions I gave earlier in this thread.

        Either way, I hope you too are up and rolling soon!

        Take care,

        tklop

      #18
      Sorry if I shouldn't post my problem here, just thought we both kind of have same problem it might be okay if not I can make separate thread. My chain keeps coming off right where the tensioner and the chain are at, around the very location. (FYI i know nothing about bikes) From the motor to the chainset (if that's what it's called) it's off by close to 1/8" or less and I was told from my local bike shop that would be okay but I also can't move it anymore where it is so it has to do. It runs all and fine motor running then when I hop on it will pop off.

      Comment


      • Valmek
        Valmek commented
        Editing a comment
        Well I found nothing anywhere searching how to adjust it, I've posted on the main ask question to see but from what I saw there's this one screw but it's stripped and can't put an allen wrench in so I hope that's not the thing that moves it, if it is I can't unscrew it and I will burn the bike.

      • tklop
        tklop commented
        Editing a comment
        I can tell you're getting to the end of your patience here.

        The allen-wrench you need is one of the stupid in-between sizes (it is metric however). I'm pretty sure you haven't stripped it out--that set-screw is made of pretty tough high-carbon steel. It's probably not stripped, it's just that you--exactly like just happened to me a few minutes ago--have had a hell of a time finding the right size Allen-wrench for it.

        But that's the set-screw. That's the one. You already found it. And once you loosen it a bit, you can get some adjustment in that motor freewheel.

        If it doesn't work, and you're really just absolutely effin' done with the kit--don't burn the bike. You can consider it an expensive lesson in your own limitations, and use that guidance to help you choose something simpler next time... I like the Cyclone, but I'm not going to blame you for throwing in the towel, if it's just not working out for you.

        You can always ditch the Cyclone. But if you do, you'll have an empty bottom-bracket, just ready and waiting for one of the many BBSXX series Bafang mid-drives... Or, you could put in a new bottom-bracket (or the old one you took out in the first place), and go with a hub-drive...

        But don't burn the bike... Or--hell--what do I know? Go ahead and try--if it makes you feel better!

        Chances are, unless it's magnesium it won't burn anyway! ;-)

        I do hope you don't give up. Frustration is part of the learning process. Every stupid thing you fight through and win--is something you will certainly know how to do should it ever come up again--but even better, you can--in the future help somebody else who is having the same problem you did...

        Good luck to you, Valmek.

        Take care,

        Tklop

      • Valmek
        Valmek commented
        Editing a comment
        No I got the right size, it fit in snug and I tried turning and ended up bending the Allen wrenches and now just turns inside the screw so I have no clue what to go from here.

        If I can't burn it I have this giant fresnel lens I'll use to melt the thing, gets very very hot.

      #19
      It may sound kind of harsh, Valmek... But...

      If that tiny little set screw is going to defeat you... Well...

      All I could suggest at this point, is to find a local mechanic. Someone who knows how to use a screw-extractor. One who can easily source a new set-screw. One who can make the precise adjustments you need. If you're on good terms, consider paying this person a stiff monthly fee--to keep you up and running. Say--$40 per month, plus parts.

      E-bikes all break frequently. Even the really good ones. So, if I were in the e-bike business, that's what I'd be doing. If you wanted me to fix your bike, I'd require you to sign up for a Repair/Maintenance-plan, with a monthly fee--and not a cheap one.

      I'd have a turn-away business too--especially here in The Netherlands.

      Anyone who thinks that's "too expensive" can just learn to do the work for themselves--provided they have the basic skills, and the patience required to learn.

      The bottom line seems to be, that people with the right skills get the "skills-discount". Everybody else (fair or not) has to either pay somebody else to do all their upkeep, or they wind up just letting their stuff break, and then they pay for more frequent replacements.

      It's gonna cost you, if you can't do it yourself.

      If, on the other hand, you're willing to put forth the very real effort needed to get "up to speed" on how to interact with mechanical systems in non-destructive ways, you can get it all--for the price of parts (and whatever your own labor is worth to you).

      What do I mean by non-destructive interaction with mechanical devices? Well, once realizing that I'd found the correct Allen wrench, and found that the screw wasn't coming loose, I'd have stopped twisting, and applied some penetrating oil to the screw. After a few minutes waiting, I would've tried again. Another few minutes if that didn't work, and try again... Etc. That's a small example. If after millions of failed attempts, the hole for the wrench did indeed get all rounded out, then I'd go fetch my screw-extractor kit, and continue.

      This is not to be critical, but to point out a significant difference in skill level, and experience. You have not invested the same energy and time as me, and heaven knows--even if you feel like it can't possibly be so--you haven't made nearly as many learning-mistakes as me, etc. And, there's one hell of a lot of folks out there much more expert than me--especially when it comes to e-bikes. I'm still working on my first e-bike project--so I'm still learning every day--and making my own share of mistakes along the way, just like you!

      I believe you too can learn, if you want to. But that's really the rub. If you're interested, you'll learn. If you're not, you'll just have to pay--one way or another--replacing the stuff you can't fix, or paying someone else to maintain it. That's true for your car, your bicycle, your lawn-mower, or your washing-machine.

      Machines... It's just the way it is with machines.

      I think sometimes learning mechanical skills is a lot harder than people think it should be, and sometimes the adage is true, "a little knowledge can be very dangerous". I've tried to train people to use tools before. If that sounds crazy to you--that's a warning sign to me! Many of those well-meaning folks knew just enough to be able to ham-handedly manipulate their tools, but they lacked all the fine motor-skills required to successfully perform the various tasks they attempted. Mostly, they just broke stuff. That's the "danger" in having ONLY a "little knowledge" -- thus the adage. With more knowledge, and a lot of practice, most of those trainees became quite proficient at using their tools. For a few others, it soon became apparent that it was time for them to find a new line of work.

      It's true with other things too--houses; financial, or legal affairs; even illness or injury. If we can, we take care of things for ourselves. If we can't we gotta pay somebody else to fix it. And in those other areas too, if we learn a couple elements of what is required, we can quickly consider ourselves "expert enough", and then--when we try to handle it ourselves, we almost always screw it up. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing--when it comes to a great many subjects.

      And me--I don't pretend I can just go out there and "learn" how to be an attorney--and that I could then go representing myself in litigation. No way. And I suck terribly at administrative crap. Ugh. I'd rather die than have to learn all that crap, so trust me--I mean it when I say I understand being just "effin" done with something that's just too difficult. And, my lack of administrative skills costs me plenty, and regularly--let me assure you!

      Everybody has their strong-suits, is my point. I know where my weaknesses lie, and sometimes I am willing to put forth the necessary effort to improve on those weak areas, and other times I struggle so much it becomes worth it to me to just pay someone else to deal with "whatever-it-was".

      I will understand completely, is my point. Still, if you let a single tiny set-screw defeat you, I will personally find that kind of sad.

      So--and you don't have to answer to me--but to yourself: Are you going to go buy some penetrating oil? Are you going to go watch some videos on YouTube to learn how to use a screw-extractor?

      Or are you gonna bust out that lens! ;-)

      Take care, Valmek.

      Tklop
      Last edited by tklop; 05-25-2018, 10:14 AM. Reason: for clarity, and to fix a typo

      Comment


        #20
        Originally posted by tklop View Post
        Don't worry, philtahu, about the delayed responses. It's good you've got other things to do with your life besides monitor forum posts!

        Now, those two sets of holes you see, are so the same mounting-brackets can be used for different width bottom-brackets. So, I am pretty certain that with the lower-holes on one side, upper-holes on the other, what you have is correct. In any case, the motor should be sitting perpendicular to the frame tubing (parallel to the bottom-bracket), not at an angle. Because of the wide-angle lens on your camera, the angles are difficult for me to see very precisely in the photos. But if you had the motor in the wrong holes, I think the incorrect angle would be readily apparent to you.

        Sometimes, I find it is reassuring to verify things like this. Sometimes I don't trust what it is my own eyes seem to be telling me. Whether or not your motor is "crooked" could be verified simply with a spirit-level. To do this, I'd first get the bike propped perfectly straight up (in the vertical axis), using the spirit-level to verify; then I'd check the motor--to see if it is level side-to-side (in the horizontal axis). If it's good--I'll know right away I'm using the correct mounting-bracket holes!

        With a little patience, you should be able to loosen that new half-link (as I tried to describe). Once you've got that chain in place, you might be good to go!

        I swear you're on the home-stretch here, philtahu.

        Best of luck!

        tklop
        Hey Tklop,

        So here's the latest!

        I got a new half link in the mail, the other one fell apart into 4 pieces and was bent up. I carefully put the half link and it was super flexible just like any of the chain links! So I installed it on the bike, but once I sat on the bike and gave it throttle the half link stiffened up. :(

        I reworked it some and got it looser, and with that setup I was able to ride around some, but still not close to full throttle. But it was cool to ride around some today!


        I'm still struggling with the problem I mentioned here:

        https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...ignment-is-off

        So that might be contributing too to the chain popping.

        I'm ordering a new cyclone mount set, one of the 3D ones from luna cycle, so I'm hoping that fixes my alignment issues given that its not as flexible and looks much better built.

        In regard to the half link, I'm ordering a new one from a shop (maybe the amazon ones aren't very good), and I'll have a guy at the bike shop install it too to see how well he can do with it.
        Is it possible to get it just as free as the other links? Right now I'm better than last time, but its still not the same as the other ones. I may just need to put more time in it.

        Anyways, so those are my two biggest challenges, I feel like I'm approaching the end to both, but that's when I hit new set back tonight Tklop.

        I started working ahead and tried to install the PAS sensor tonight.

        That's when things took a sharp turn down.

        I was trying to take the bottom bracket thing off, and I felt a strong resistance, but I thought it was just because the bottom bracket piece and that spacer somehow were stuck. So I kept turning, but it never really broke free. After a few more attempts, I took the screws off the motor, (the motor was still screwed into the mount, and then it came off. But when I tried to put it back in, I couldn't screw it in it because I think the threads got damaged. :( I probably should have been more patient, I thought about the threads, but I was like surely that's not the issue...

        Anyways, now I'm not sure what to do about this challenge, I feel like I am learning but I'm hoping to take it to a bike shop tomorrow and see what they think.

        Trying to keep my head up, the weather has been raining a lot anyways so I couldn't be biking anyways. I'm just a bit worried the threading damage may not be repairable.






        Comment


        • tklop
          tklop commented
          Editing a comment
          Hello again, Philtahu!

          It does sound like a mixed report...

          Those threads do look a bit messed up--as though they got cross-threaded; but it may still be possible to get them straightened out enough to work. Similarly to using a tap-and-die set to "chase" the threads (the ideal tool, but something you'll be unlikely to find in a size to fit your bottom-bracket) if you can manage to work the other piece--the one that threads into there--back into the bottom-bracket again, while catching the correct set of threads--it'll help "rework" the original thread-path. This will probably not be easy to do. The odds of catching the "wrong" threads and cross-threading it all over again are pretty high, so you'll need to use that "mechanic's feel" you're developing, and your eyes to check the alignment, to try to be sure that doesn't happen. Also important to try remember in this process, is that one side of the bottom-bracket uses clockwise threads, the other side counter-clockwise. Although a simple point, this might be surprisingly easy to lose sight of, especially after struggling for awhile.

          As far as the half-links, they should be able to work without being stiff. If you can get them to loosen up--and it sounds like you're having luck with that these days--they'll work out just fine. Those half-links' are typically made are a little thicker than your average links on it's one end. Sometimes, they won't bend quite as sharply as a standard link, but none of that should make them too stiff for operation. Your chain will never need to bend so sharply as to cause any issues with that.

          In looking at the pictures you've posted, and the ones you linked from your alignment-woes post--I can see you're right. It is quite clear your motor has a different version mounting bracket than the one showed in those other pictures. The other one has two straight (non-bent) motor supports, with an arrangement of spacers to make things "line up" while your version uses the bent-mount to accomplish the "lining up". I'm really not sure what to make of that. Maybe those pictures are from a previous mounting-system version.

          I'm using the Cyclone 2000-4000W motor myself. It's a little longer than the Cyclone 1800-3000W motor, but uses the same style one-side-bent bracket you have, along with a couple pieces which formed an extension, to make the bottom-bracket wider (along with an extra support bearing) allowing everything to line up nicely in the end.

          What has me puzzled, is I cannot seem to see anything in your kit to help compensate for your having a bracket that's 5 mm wider. If the kit is meant to fit a range of bottom-brackets, it seems there should have been enough parts to make that happen--included in your kit--without having to get spacers from Lowes. But I admit I do not know how it's supposed to work. Seems to me, a kit which wished to share it's mounting-plates, but was designed to fit a range (68mm-73mm) of bottom-bracket sizes, would have to be initially set up to fit the bottom-brackets at the widest end of that range of sizes, and then that kit would have to include various spacers of some kind to make up the difference, between that fixed motor-bracket position and the existing bottom bracket--making up the gap down to the smaller sizes. That's pretty much exactly what they sent me with my kit.

          I am not sure what has happened, but I think I have one thing might help with that pedal hitting. Make sure your spacers are on the left side of the bottom-bracket (left-side, as if you're sitting on the bike). If you put them on the right-side, it'll pull the pedals further into the motor.

          Anyway, I remain puzzled.

          In any case, I do hope you can get that all to align better. Maybe that new bracket will help. But it may also be possible that you need someone with more experience than I have--specific experience with your same 73 mm bottom-bracket installation plans--to help clarify the nuances in your case.

          I'm glad to hear you got some riding in though! It may be a small reward, but those little things can keep us going--when the going gets tough!

          As always, best of luck!

          and, take care,

          Tklop
          Last edited by tklop; 05-22-2018, 09:43 AM. Reason: for further clarity.

        #21
        Hey man I'll come back later and post pictures of my setup but I only have this one, think I finally fixed my bike to working almost perfectly but still have trouble in the acceleration on chain pop up but been going easy so it hasn't yet. Anyways I got mine mounted on a 73mm same as you and so much trouble it has ruined so many of my days working on it. Also FYI this is what I had to do to get mine working so you may not have to but I have similar problems as you do so I'll show you what I did.

        My threads are kind of stripped but worse then yours and I had to put spacers on the bottom bracket so not many of my threads are even screwed in, it's still loose and won't screw in anymore but when I try to pull it out it won't so it's in there, what I had to end up doing is hammer it into the bottom bracket with a wrench and then screw it in until can't no more, I also put some glue on it to hold it but I see some people say not recommend it but I say fuck it, I have no experience with this stuff and if it works, it works, only reason I did that because I was pedaling the other day because I fucked my throttle up and couldn't use it so I pedal too much and got the bottom bracket loose.

        I'm also using the 68mm-83mm https://lunacycle.com/replacement-st...clone-68-83mm/

        Also do you have any pictures of your chain after you've gotten the half links? My local bike shop tried putting half links on my setup but they were the problem for me and I had to get rid of it.

        Comment


          #22
          Here is what I did to resolve the problem;
          eliminate the tensioner chain will fit!
          drill out thread and bolt the sprocket down!
          if your using single drive at rear .. don’t . Because motor can’t take the heat build up up hills!
          go with a cassette and derailleur . Choose a sram long reach and match the hand switch.
          this way you can climb hills with ease and not burn motor! Your going to find the front sprocket needs to be stronger!! As the bolts will bend. Better spacers (wider) will help with this.
          position the rear cassette so that the chain line favours the higher gears (less tooth). Spacers are available . Use strong chain. Do not use a link! Press the chain together instead . Buy an extra chain and make it the same length. Carry that with you along with a chain tool.
          lastly seal the battery connections and spray WD 40 on throttle twist .. mine failed because it corroded allready!buy an extra throttle for spare . (24$). You will find that if your mainly doing trails; 38 tooth rear sprocket is all you need!
          Last edited by Cudaman; 2 weeks ago.

          Comment


            #23
            Hey philtahu,

            I notice one thing that seems different from my build. Your drive gear has a fair bit of gap between its face, and the end of the shaft. On my build, that drive gear inner race is basically flush to the face of the motor shaft. I wonder if that offset is allowing for oscillations at the gear which result in throwing your chain.

            Jose

            Comment

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