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Design, lay-out, and fabrication of E-Bike Advanced Throttle Tamer.

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    Design, lay-out, and fabrication of E-Bike Advanced Throttle Tamer.





    Welcome to the MOATT (Mother Of All Throttle Tamers) build thread!





    Overview: Using specific requested desired modifications to a throttle's typical output. This thread will attempt to design, lay out and in simple easy to follow detail, to fabricate a device able to carry out this mission. This is an all-clean sheet, from the ground up, new from scratch, grassroots effort for improvement in this field.

    For the benefit of all that would endeavor to make and use it.



    Background: A typical Hall Sensor throttle signal outputs .8 to 3.4vdc, Home (no rotation) to WOT. (wide open throttle) With 4.3 to 5vdc typical input.
    A typical potentiometer type throttle signal outputs 0 to 5vdc, Home to WOT, with 5vdc input.
    See this thread for more complete details and cautions on using and modifying these commonly used E-bike throttles.

    ***** 8-16-2018 Welcome to the Hall Sensor Throttle Thread! If there is something you'd like to add, correct, needs better explanation, or have a question about... feel free to Private Message me. Better yet, open a new thread in the "Trouble Shooting (https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/main-forum/trouble-shooting)"


    Skill Set: Use of a multi-meter, soldering, wiring, and ability to follow directions.

    Desired MODIFICATIONS to throttle control and output...
    1. Ability to SET throttle "Home" voltage signal output. Reduces starting dead band and increases maximum use of throttle rotation for control of speed. Helps to reduce aggressive starts. For more detail, see this POST.
    2. Ability to SET "WOT" voltage signal output. limit top end speed as well as eliminate top dead band.​) Helpful to stay within maximum speed law requirements with possible improvement of throttle rotation for control of speed. For more detail, see this POST.
    3. Soft Start. Ability to SET throttle ramp up slew rate. (Aggressiveness of throttle input/adjustable ramp up.) AKA: Anti wheelie.
    4. Cruise Control. Ability to set and maintain a specific throttle voltage output until overridden. For more details, see this POST.
    5. Voltage display of signal output for easy setting/verification of operations.
    6. Walk Mode. Small amount of power given to help with movement of bike when walking along side of it. Helpful with moving heavy bikes upstairs.
    7. Shift of ramp rate per percentage of throttle twist. (Just a thought.)
    8. Bypass. Ability to use a switch to easily bypass MOATT.
    9. Type Conversion. Ability with a switch to choose to convert hall sensor type voltage output to potentiometer type, or vice versa.
    10. Voltage Indication. Ability to switch voltage display between battery or throttle output voltage.

    Other thoughts and comments about the desired modifications...

    #1 and #2 Could also be used to modify a potentiometer throttle for use with a hall sensor input controller, or a hall sensor throttle for use on a potentiometer input controller. As well as shortening the needed mechanical rotation for short throw type more aggressive throttle. On/Off type operation.
    Adjusted by pot, programming, or button...?
    #3 Keeping in mind immediate release or quick back to home voltage when throttle released. (No delay to return or off voltage.)
    #4 Enable with a button? Or perhaps holding at desired speed for a few seconds? Disable with braking, change of throttle position from home, or the enable button.
    #6 Input voltage and current of the display will have to be considered. Double as a battery voltage display.
    #6 Typically seen at 3.7 Mph or ~6Km/Hr.
    #9 Just a convenient feature in association with #1 and #2. I.E. #1 and #2 could do this function if desired but with more user input.

    NOW is the time to chime in and make suggestions as to what you would like included. Or what's most important or desired.

    What this control will NOT do...
    • Increase your bike's speed. Unless of course your present throttle is not outputting enough voltage to request it. :-)


    The spark that got this project going...

    Having done very simple hall sensor modifications with plain ol' resistors in the Hall Guide. My eyes where opened a bit more with the discussion in this thread.

    Hello all I have just read an extensive post on the hall throttle by Tommycat (https://electricbike.com/forum/member/5069-tommycat). Like every post I have found over the last couple days, it mentions a hall throttle (HT) putting out a small amount of output even when off or at rest. But, I have not seen a way to stop the


    And in particular this diagram and comments by AZguy​.
    .
    .
    Click image for larger version  Name:	TzauGsW.png Views:	0 Size:	21.9 KB ID:	166340






    Seeing that the voltage output of the throttle could be manipulated to whatever output desired, and perhaps at whatever position of the throttle. Has spurred my interest on increasing my electronics knowledge to include op-amps and beyond. So, gearing up to make a copy of this circuit, I asked myself... why stop there? Why not go for the whole enchilada by including features seen about in the E-biking world. So, with my limited experience in electronics, you can see that this effort is not likely going to succeed with just my input, especially in the electronic design part. To this end I'm relying heavily on interaction with others that have the experience and expertise in this field.

    Now this development project could follow a couple of paths. One is the analog road which I intend to take. The other is the digital or programming path that some may have a taste for. Which to me knows no bounds. But having done some programming in a different field, I can appreciate the satisfaction of a completed project, but the rewards seem to lack from the amount of effort. But that's just me.

    To help with either path you take... take a look at these helpful project tools that were pointed out to me by AZguy​.

    Analog tools:
    Simple analog simulation and quick schematic capture for publication (not for PCB design): LTspice (free tool at https://www.analog.com/en/resources/...simulator.html)​

    Digital microprocessors and development boards.


    Amongst these links are development software.



    That should at least get us all on the same page and explain the end goal. If I add anything important, I'll keep a change log below... or check the edit statement at the bottom.

    Let's get this party started!




    Change Log...

    2-19-2014: Added display voltage switching suggestion. And added bypass switch suggestion.
    2-28-2014: Ironed out desired mods.




    Regards,
    T.C.
    FEEDBACK! In the lower right corner of this post, clicking on the LIKE button
    will give an indication if this topic is of interest or helpful.
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Magnifying Glass.jpg Views:	9 Size:	19.2 KB ID:	166504
    Likewise for any post below.














    Last edited by Tommycat; 02-29-2024, 06:42 AM. Reason: Always something...
    See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

    #2
    Reserved for final project schematic, parts list and building instructions.
    Last edited by Tommycat; 02-28-2024, 09:14 AM.
    See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

    Comment


      #3
      LT spice
      Helpful hints, handy circuits, time savers.
      Last edited by Tommycat; 02-28-2024, 09:16 AM.
      See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

      Comment


        #4
        Completed sub-level/building block circuits. newer on top to oldest.
        Last edited by Tommycat; 02-29-2024, 06:44 AM.
        See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

        Comment


        • calfee20
          calfee20 commented
          Editing a comment
          Sounds great.

        #5
        Great to hear from you calfee20​.

        From your many great builds and experience in operation of both types, mid drive and hub motors. What would be your most desired improvements?


        Regards,
        T.C.
        See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

        Comment


          #6
          So my questions from now on will deal strictly with the analog development type device. (Unless obvious otherwise.)

          Question #1) Does one take just one desired outcome change at a time, test it, and when correct, then add to it. Or try to combine more than one thing at a time? Plan of attack?

          Downloading the LTspice software.

          Regards,
          T.C.
          See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

          Comment


            #7
            A bit of a caution...

            I foresee an exchange of data files shared in collaborations. (I.G. .asc extension files from the LTspice software.)
            Take pause and perhaps carefully look at from whom its being sent.
            I wouldn't want anyone to catch a virus.


            Data point. My newly installed and updated LTspice software is VersionX64 24.0.9


            Regards,
            T.C.
            See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

            Comment


              #8
              Click image for larger version  Name:	Softstart.jpg Views:	8 Size:	70.0 KB ID:	166423


              O.K. Watched the video tutorials, been driving around the LTspice software. Trying just basic maneuvers... Decided a good place to jump in at would be a soft start circuit.


              Overview: With the signal voltage from the throttle coming in at .8vdc to 4.6vdc. With the testing cycle at about 5 secs. I would like to achieve a gradual lagging arc upwards of the output, hesitating or lagging behind the incoming voltage for a couple seconds till catching up. Then with "release of throttle", NO delay with the down track to .8vdc. I was thinking this might be accomplished with a resistor/capacitor type "fill to delay" voltage circuit...

              Questions...
              Does this seem reasonable?
              How can I get the power source to act like a throttle output as mentioned above? Is this possible?


              LTspice .asc file...

              Softstart.zip










              Last edited by Tommycat; 3 weeks ago.
              See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

              Comment


              #9
              Originally posted by Tommycat View Post
              ...
              How can I get the power source to act like a throttle output as mentioned above? Is this possible?


              Try this: modWramp.zip

              I used an ADI opamp simply because LTspice isn't as fussy with them. This is also an oversimplification - *not a complete circuit*. It shows the exponential ramp up but swift return going down...
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • Tommycat
                Tommycat commented
                Editing a comment
                Terrific, giving it a try now...

              #10
              The first part looks ok...



              Click image for larger version

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              Anyway to get it to look like this, start to finish? Holding at ~4.6vdc at the end?


              Click image for larger version

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              Something to do with the V2 PWL output plot?
              See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

              Comment


                #11
                Something closer...?


                Will tweak the beginning and end if you think this is viable.
                Last edited by Tommycat; 3 weeks ago.
                See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

                Comment


                  #12
                  I'm unclear on what you are attempting

                  What I posted is something that responds when the throttle increases slowly but when the throttle decreases tracks it directly

                  The green trace is the throttle changing abruptly both up and down (not how I work a throttle but only to demonstrate the circuit behavior) and the blue is the output​

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Comment


                  • Tommycat
                    Tommycat commented
                    Editing a comment
                    O.K. It looks like the R3 resistor can do the delay adjustment... 50K=400ms.
                    Is the Zener diode there to prevent flywheel damage to the op amp?

                  • Tommycat
                    Tommycat commented
                    Editing a comment
                    O.K. found how to copy a component...

                  • AZguy
                    AZguy commented
                    Editing a comment
                    PWL = piece-wise linear

                    You are giving it a set of data points that is a string of times and voltages (or current for a current source) connected by straight lines (linear)

                    E.g. if the PWL is 0s, 0V; 1s, 0V; 1.001s, 3V the voltage starts at 0 until the 1s point and then ramps in a straight line to 3V over the next 0.001s (1ms) to the 2s point, then stays at 3V

                    +1m is shorthand for +1 millisecond... so in a PWL that says 0s, 0V; 1s, 0V; +1m, 3V it's the4 same as above.. at the +1m is the equivalent of 1.001

                    LTspice (and plenty of other electronic capture) m=milli or x1e-3, u=micro(µ) x1e-6, n=nano x1e-9, p=pico, f=femto x1e-12, k=kilo x1e3, meg=mega x1e6, g=giga x1e9, t=tera x1e12

                    Yes R3 can do it but typically it would be done with C1 so as not to change any of the DC bias and error conditions, etc.

                  #13

                  Very good, thank you. Will concentrate on changing capacitance... but is there such a thing as a variable capacitor?

                  Smoothed out the throttle input a bit, this shows results with a 50K resistor...

                  Is the Zener diode there to prevent flywheel damage to the op amp?​



                  Click image for larger version  Name:	AZSoftstart.jpg Views:	0 Size:	257.7 KB ID:	166470

                  Drew up Fechter's circuit...


                  Click image for larger version  Name:	Fecters Soft Start2.png Views:	0 Size:	65.6 KB ID:	166471


                  Fechters Soft Start2.zip
                  Outputs look familiar... but I like your simpler circuit.


                  BTW, your file names harken back to earlier times... ;-)
                  Last edited by Tommycat; 3 weeks ago.
                  See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

                  Comment


                  • AZguy
                    AZguy commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Ahh yes, if you want to change the time constant in-circuit by turning something a pot in series with R3 works - variable capacitors aren't really suitable for this

                    The other ways to change timing is with multiple capacitors that are connected or not. Connecting them or not can be as simple as little board mounted switches or via digital inputs

                    Then again if looking for more flexibility it starts to make the microprocessor approach more appealing


                    The simple one op-amp does exponential ramps (curved) - fechters does a linear ramp (straight)... there are likely pros and cons to both results... I might be able to simplify the linear ramp design a little if I gave it some thought

                  • Tommycat
                    Tommycat commented
                    Editing a comment
                    “The simple one op-amp does exponential ramps (curved) - fechters does a linear ramp (straight)... there are likely pros and cons to both results... I might be able to simplify the linear ramp design a little if I gave it some thought”

                    I wonder if you can really tell a difference in actual use.
                    How about an inverted curved ramp? Slower start, faster finish?

                  • AZguy
                    AZguy commented
                    Editing a comment
                    That would be more like a logarithmic ramp

                    Anything _can_ be done... but that's a bit trickier (not impossible) with op-amps

                    Once the goals are clear then "best" approach can be defined

                  #14
                  Originally posted by AZguy
                  Once the goals are clear then "best" approach can be defined
                  Can you help me define how to make the goals clear?
                  Design specifications for each individual desired function one at a time, or all laid out in entirety at the start?

                  What should be included in the specs, in order to lay out a template of required information so that the design can be most efficiently made and not have to be reworked or tweaked. (much ;-)

                  Example?
                  Global specs would be a completed circuit that works with an input voltage of 5vdc, throttle signal voltage of 0 to 5vdc, with current usage under 20mA, and output of 6mA of 0 to 5vdc..
                  See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

                  Comment


                  • AZguy
                    AZguy commented
                    Editing a comment
                    You are on the right track I think

                    Maybe make a list of "requirements"

                    E.g. take throttle input signal (volt range) and produce a throttle output (volt range)


                    They should be granular and specific

                    E.g.

                    Throttle output shall increase in relation to the throttle input at a rate that prevents abrupt application of power from the motor

                    Throttle output shall decrease at the same rate as the throttle input

                    Throttle output shall increase (in a linear/exponential/logarithmic) transition (or other description)

                    The rate of increase shall be adjustable via (method)

                    Etc., etc.


                    Requirements should give how important they are - e.g. "must have", "desirable", "like to have", "optional" and a priority


                    Then the discussion can be how to achieve the requirements and their feasibility, effort, etc.

                  #15
                  What do you think of this format?


                  Desired modification requirements to throttle control and output...


                  Requirement #1

                  What: Throttle starting voltage. (Starting position voltage or starting position voltage dead band elimination mod)

                  Why: When a throttle is first twisted to actuate motor, excessive rotation is sometimes required before enough voltage output from the throttle is achieved to start motor actuation.
                  This is a loss of optimal operational rotation and control.
                  Or when using a hall sensor throttle on a potentiometer controller, or vice versa. This mode would allow the starting (home) voltages to be tuned to the correct required voltage that the controller is expecting to see with the throttle in its home position.

                  How: By providing the ability to modify the throttle's output voltage in the home position to increase or decrease voltage in a linear fashion by way of a manually turned potentiometer.

                  Priority: Desirable.

                  I.G. Home position of hall sensor throttle showing .7vdc to be increased to 1.1vdc or decreased to 0vdc as desired. Or a potentiometer throttle's output of 0vdc to be increased to .8vdc.

                  Specs: Input voltage to circuit 0 to 1vdc, output 0 to 1.5vdc. Maintaining an output current of ~6mA.



                  Does this adequately get the jest across? Too wordy? Would a plot help?

                  Let the discussions begin.

                  You have a hall to pot circuit already. A dip switch to change between the two, with a pot that can tweak the final output voltage for both modes?
                  As you've seen for hall sensors, I have mods for input increase and output decrease tweaks by way of pots, if that helps.
                  .




                  Last edited by Tommycat; 02-27-2024, 01:43 PM.
                  See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub motor E-Bike build HERE.

                  Comment

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