Paralleling BMS protected Li-ion packs.

[Sebz]

When my BMS trips on my 72V system (two 36V batteries in series, each with a 100A BMS), the bike has no power because the LVC in the Cycle Analyst is set to 65V and the LVS in the Lyen Mark 2 controller is set to 56V.

Under these circumstances, my Cycle Analyst reads "Low V". In order to fix this, I power cycle the system by unplugging a battery from the Y-connector, waiting a few seconds, and then plugging it back in.

At that point, I need to be aware that I was drawing too much current so I toggle the 3-speed switch to Low and continue riding at a much lower power level.

In order to solve this problem, I incrementally turned down the maximum current (in the CA) until the BMS never tripped on my 12 mile round trip commute. It ended up at a 30A maximum.

In my case, this happens because my battery pack can only deliver a continuous 30A for a 12 mile ride. I can set the max to 200A and draw up to 105A, but only for a very short trip. My battery (specifically the cell capacity) is the weak link in my system.

My next battery will be a higher capacity (Ah) battery with higher capacity (e.g. 3000mA) cells, but I will still use two 36V batteries in series.

I made a little drawing for you to explain why the diodes are there in series.

I replaced the BMS with a switch (it is basically that, a mosfet switch) and if let say the BMS trips then the mosfet opens and breaks a 72V circuit ....NOT a 36V circuit like the BMS was design to do. If the FETs in the BMS can handle 72V it's fine... but could be just 60V too who know....! And if let say the mosfet dies and can't be reseted then you can be stranded (depending if you can redo your connections and if the motor can take 36V)

But add 2 Diodes and you will get 0V at the mosfet and are basically switching a 36V circuit. And yes you will get 36V (minus the V loss from the diode) at the motor.

[gustavoya]

Hello everybody
Did anyone try with a P channel Mosfet?
Would it work?

http://digitaldiy.io/articles/electronics/general/452-draft-mini-tip-diode-without-a-voltage-drop

[Sebz]

Never tried it but looks like a very clever way to do it... Now the only thing is to find a 60V and 50A P Channel FET. and you will need a circuit t to be able to drive the gate with the pack voltage (nothing a diode and resistor can't fix)

[AZguy]

You will be far better served using a N-channel on the low-side.

There's more to it than that configuration with the high battery voltages we work with - the gate needs to be protected against exceeding the Vgs(max). This can be done with a voltage divider but it's far better to do this with with two resistors and a zener.

The following demonstrates this - it's a well proven design from a product intended to standoff 200V. Left side is the source and the right side is the load. The resistor values should be chosen for the application and the MOSFET - happy to help...

[AZguy]

BTW - these parts are *not* for high currents.... just an example of the circuit...

[calfee20]

Grin has a 36 volt battery that is made to be stacked either parallel or series or both. There are 2 identical connectors coming out of each battery. Either can be a charge or discharge wire.

So if you can parallel 2 identical Luna batteries and leave them that way can you parallel the 2 XT60s and charge them both at once? If no then why not?

[AZguy]

I do think the only question would be the BMS and since they are as well documented as any other chinese import it's a crap shoot the details of what they do but they are pretty simple really and so I'm guessing that the suggestion about charging them separately comes from a place of being "better safe......"

[Sebz]

Well I have to be honest.. I did wrote all the post and say not to do it... Mainly because lots of people don't take the necessary precautions, don't know what they are doing and so...

Also the BMS's in yours batteries are not designed to be paralleled and they are cheap boards made in China with no detailed spec sheets... they are far from digital smart BMS used in electric cars....so who knows what they can do. But I'm a tester! I like to test stuff and don't mind breaking stuff too. I blew a BMS and wreaked 8 cells while testing paralleling 2 different batteries (capacity and chemistry) for the sake of this post.

So yeah...I do charge in parallel... all the time ;) BUT I remove the discharge parallel connection before starting the charger!!! The real danger is there: If for some reason one of the batteries BMS detected a fault and stops the charge process well the other pack in parallel will still continue to take a charge but if the parallel connection on the discharge is still present well the current will flow from the discharge of the good battery to the bad one forcing current on a possible dangerous situation .

You should never charge from the discharge port. The BMS cant stop current if there is an issue..

But so far haven't found anything that would be of concern if done properly... well the only thing I noticed is that charging to 100% results in a lower total voltage, like instead of 58.8V I get only to 58.3V.. but I rarely charge to 100% anyways.. and when I do (for balancing purpose) I charge them independently.

So once they are paralleled the voltage remains the same for either charging or discharging it's the current that changes The battery that is lagging will get a little more current then the other till they are even...

[Sebz]

And to answer you question about the ligo, well they have a single input output, meaning the BMS can figure out if you are charging or discharging and can cut that input/ouput in case of a fault.

on a BMS with separate charge and discharge port, the BMS does not cut the discharge port in case of an overcharged cell so if you continue charging from the discharge well I'll let you guess the outcome.

[dtawom]

I have an ebike lithium pack charging question that I haven't been able to find an answer for anywhere else so hopefully you amazing folks can help me out. After a disaster trying to use a step up controller from 36v hoover board battery packs to my 48v 1500w wheel I decided to just bump everything up to 48v. The packs I settled on were these 7-2600 mah 20650 cell series packs with their own BMS https://www.ebay.com/itm/24V-7S-BMT-...53.m2749.l2649
and when purchased in bulk were a resonable price per cell. I intended on using 16 of these to make an @ 48v 21ah battery pack. I figured I could connect 8 sets of two batteries in series and then run those sets in parallel to get my 48v battery bank. I had originally intended to charge the batteries using a 300w 12v led power supply, connected to this solar charge controller https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 set at 48v charging. I wanted to go with 48v because connecting a 24v +/- lead to each of the 16 batteries positive and negative terminals would be a pain. Then I started thinking about it while doing more research and began getting much more confused mainly because of the individual battery packs BMS that is involved. In a typical lead acid scenario for this you would just do like the scenario on the right in the attached image says, the only difference being in my case I'd be running 8 parallel sets of two batteries in series. The pictured scenario is for lead acid batteries, but when charging lithiums with a BMS involved aren't things a lot different? if I use a 48v charger in my scenario wouldn't the 24v BMS systems in each charging pack be getting hit with 48v and couldn't this damage the BMS/Batteries? Maybe I'm overthinking things or not visualizing how the power distribution works properly, but I could really use some help and advice before I blow up my expensive batteries. The picture on the right represents the battery configuration I'm going for.

Any help or suggestions would be super appreciated.

Thanks,

[paxtana]

Not sure how you got those numbers..If you put 8 24v batteries in series it is 192v not 48v.

The equivalent of your picture is 2 24v batteries in series and then however many parallel strings you want that are comprised of 2 24v batteries in series.

BUT I don't recommend this.

The bms works to prevent issues to each pack. The bms in the batteries you are referring to is not designed to function while wired up like that and it damn sure was not designed to charge like that, so you would be without protection.

Maybe you could get it to work with cell loggers and alarms instead of bms but you would be a lot better off using a battery built for an ebike from the beginning. I see multiple critical issues in this plan and that's a big problem considering you are literally playing with fire.

[dtawom]

Not sure how you got those numbers..If you put 8 24v batteries in series it is 192v not 48v.

The equivalent of your picture is 2 24v batteries in series and then however many parallel strings you want that are comprised of 2 24v batteries in series.

BUT I don't recommend this.

The bms works to prevent issues to each pack. The bms in the batteries you are referring to is not designed to function while wired up like that and it damn sure was not designed to charge like that, so you would be without protection.

Maybe you could get it to work with cell loggers and alarms instead of bms but you would be a lot better off using a battery built for an ebike from the beginning. I see multiple critical issues in this plan and that's a big problem considering you are literally playing with fire.

I edited my original post and added a picture of what battery configuration I want to use. It is two 24v batteries in series and then 8 banks of those in parallel. All I'm really trying to find out is if I charge with 48v from the top parallel leads from the new picture in my original post, will I damage the BMS in my lithium packs? Based on your answer I'm assuming that is highly probable. But if I use the pictured configuration for powering the bike and run individual wires from the positive and negative leads of each 24v pack to a 24 volt charger I should be okay and not damage the internal battery packs BMS correct?

[kenandmal]

Can you help, I want to add another 36v battery and would wire it in parallel, I do not want them working together as that defeats the object ( for me anyway ) I would like to know if I only switch one battery on would it still discharge to the other.

[paxtana]

If you have it wired in parallel anything you do to cause a large voltage imbalance between those 2 batteries is potentially unsafe. It would not be an issue of the battery that is turned on draining into the battery that is turned off, it would be an issue of when you turn on the battery that was previously turned off it will be much higher voltage and it will flow into the lower voltage battery all at once potentially damaging it.

It sounds like what you want is some sort of switch that isolates each battery and allows you to switch between them as a power source for the bike without actually being in parallel. Not really the same thing.

[kenandmal]

Hi paxtana I would not have them both switched on at the same time. I suppose I really want to know is does the battery on off switch isolate the battery

[paxtana]

kenandmal I understand you would not have them both switched on at the same time.

Most switches on ebike batteries are BMS based and do not isolate the battery from being charged through output, in other words just because it won't allow power to be pulled from the battery does not mean it blocks being charged through the discharge wiring. Most BMS are specifically designed this way as forced charging through discharge is part of common BMS reset procedure used by many BMS boards. So the only thing keeping power from flowing backwards into the "off" battery would be if the "on" battery has a lower voltage.

So if you use the integrated on/off switch on the batteries there is a good chance while depleting the first battery it would indeed be isolated, once you turn it off and turn on the second pack that it would result in essentially unregulated charging of the first pack since it then has a lower voltage than the second battery. This would be bypassing all BMS protections and potentially flowing in at a rate much higher than the charge rate recommended by the cell manufacturer.

The imbalance would not be the sort of small imbalance we were covering on the initial post on this thread which describes something more or less self-limiting. A small imbalance is somewhat safe. What you are describing is NOT safe, there is a possibility your battery could catch fire.

[kenandmal]

Thanks very much, I won't be doing it that way then.

[New Mariner]

Sebz how about a video on how to make a triple parallel connector for the charging ports (xt60s) on mini batteries

[Lazeebiker]

Hi, I've aquired a 9ah 36v 10INR19/66-4 333WH li-ion battery pack and would like to know if I can run it in parallel with my 10 AH 36V 6068135/5000MaH 2P10S 360wh Li-ion silver fish battery pack which is 2 years old?
The 9ah pack has very little, if any use but has been left dormant for a year or so, though it seems to have charged up ok.
I would be charging them seperately.

[paxtana]

If the packs are not identical then it is not a good idea.

[Ebikeidiot14]

If you have two 36v 20ah batteries with 20amp bms's. Do the amps add together? Like do you get 72v 20ah 40 amp or 72v 20ah 20 and?

[paxtana]

As far as the discharge rate of the combined packs when in parallel, yes it would double the discharge rate and the capacity.

It would NOT double the voltage. To to that you would need to put it in series, which we would not recommend.

[calfee20]

"''''''''No......

[Sebz]

You either get 72V 20ah and 20amps discharge in series
Or you get 36V 40ah and 40amps discharge in parallel

Taken you take the right precautions or course.

[Gadgets4grls]

This fits into this thread so thought I'd post it.


I just finish swapping a failed bionx system to a Bafang BBSHD system. I was previously running two Bionx batteries with one charging from solar while the other was powering the trike, then swap, Bionx's BMS wouldn't allow charging and high current discharge at the same time so that was the solution.
Since I had to replace the system when the motor failed I decided to try something different. I went with a Bafang BBSHD and three Luna Cycle Wolf Panasonic GA 13.5 batteries that I'm now running/charging in parallel with a Cycle Satiator.
Attached are a couple of pictures of the wire harness that I made. I forgot to get a picture of it completed with heat shrink before I installed it on the trike. :-(
Couple of the construction details for those interested

10ga wire along all of the discharger lines. Charge lines are only 14ga but I'm not going to normally run more than 7amps on the charge side
Hi-temp ring terminals, crimped with a hydraulic wire crimper and then soldered before marine grade heat shinking.
Brass screws and flex head lock nuts on the connections.

Schottky 80V 200amp diodes, each leg is rated for 100amps so I can run the motor off of any single leg without worrying about overloading the diode. Never plan on doing this but it's an option if needed. On the plus side I'm only seeing .1 V drop across the diodes.
I have the fourth leg pig tailed out for future expansion to either a fourth battery or feeding from the solar charging system if the charging while riding doesn't work out with the Wolf's BMSs

Just thought I'd post this up for all of those running parallel batteries

Gadgets

mod edit: See this link for the full thread on how this was done