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    I have 2300 miles on my Stock, non Ludi X1.

    I also have a BBSHD fat bike with Luna BBSHD and Wolf battery combo
    I have programmed a couple things on the BBSHD

    I hardly ever ride the fat bike because the X1 is so much better, IMO
    Just the torque sensor alone on the X1 is enough to seal the deal for me

    Comment


      Originally posted by tpellaton View Post
      Howdy all. Newbe here. I am interested in buying an X1 and have been reading the posts to get a feel for the bike from all of you. I am conflicted. Currently I have 2 giant stance bikes, the wife's bike has a bbs02 and mine has a BBSHD both of which I custom programmed. The Giant stance seems to be an OK bike and the battery fits well on the downtube. Happy with both bikes and mine has many upgrades. We are seniors and do not ride crazy hard like all the younger people.

      My bike which is a 2015 giant stance has about 8000 miles on it and the frame, swing arm, shocks, forks, etc are near worn out, however I am able to keep it going for now. I have always treated toys like this roughly, but not so much now that I am older. My best options may be to replace the Stance (if they ever become available from Giant) or buy an X1 when they become available. After reading the many great posts here, I am concerned about the reliability of the X1 as well as parts and battery availability.

      Have many of you here made the transition from a custom bike with a BBSHD to X1? Regrets? Please tell me all about your experiences if you have. Much appreciated.

      From what I have read it would be great to have an X1 with a BBSHD cleanly tucked into it. I am also concerned with the lack of programming of the X1. My custom programs for the BBS are simply even spaced power increments for predicable easy use with some very low power options for flat rides. We also like the shift stall sensor and brake cutoff safety switches. We do use the throttle sparingly mostly for starts and slow speed navigation through tricky terrain trying to minimize pedal strikes and potential falls.

      Thanks for any feedback.
      I’d also like to have the X1 with the BBSHD. I have my hardtail programmed perfectly and it kicks my X1’s butt. The M600 drive could be made much better if we could program it to our style and terrain. I’m looking forward to checking out the new controller from wattwagon expected in June.

      Comment


      • Mike Eatough
        Mike Eatough commented
        Editing a comment
        I fitted a bbshd (Ludicrous) to my X1. It fits quite well without needing to modify the X1 frame. It was a bit short on range so I had Bicycle Motor Works make a 14s- 5p 17.5 amp/hr battery & adapted it to the stock battery end pieces. For an hour or so its the funniest single track bike I ever had.

      Originally posted by bhaaf View Post

      I’d also like to have the X1 with the BBSHD. I have my hardtail programmed perfectly and it kicks my X1’s butt. The M600 drive could be made much better if we could program it to our style and terrain. I’m looking forward to checking out the new controller from wattwagon expected in June.
      Yep and in our dreams since the X1/M09 is minus a true bottom bracket....maybe Dengfu will dream up a new frame.

      Don't know how much better the m600 can get than with the 14.6 firmware and now I could care less about programming the motor. Works great for my riding style and trails....everything's subjective obviously.
      Last edited by KTMracer63; 05-03-2021, 08:34 PM.

      Comment


        Pre-orders for July are open
        https://lunacycle.com/x1-enduro-ebike/

        Comment


          I searched the thread and I guess the battery indicator on the bike computer / display is worthless? Why does it show 64% battery left when on the battery level indicator itself it's down to just 1 red dot? I noticed this last weekend when the bike started losing steam (power) as I was riding back from the trails. From my last e-bike, this usually means voltage is dropping as the battery has less juice. I checked the battery indicator and it's at 65%. Checked the battery indicator on the actual battery when I got home, and lo and behold it's nearly drained.

          You guys need to get this fixed.

          Comment


          • AZguy
            AZguy commented
            Editing a comment
            Monitor voltage or even much better yet get a battery monitor with amp-hour/watt-hour totalizer

            It's been pretty much understood that looking at percent or bars or whatever that isn't numeric is not anywhere near as informative... good enough that after a while you'll know when it's close to done but at this point I can pretty much tell that by the feel of the motor due to voltage sag being a lot greater at low charge...

          • Brian99
            Brian99 commented
            Editing a comment
            Did you charge to 100% and let it keep charging for a couple of hours? I'm still trying to figure out whether this is what sets the 100% reference, when the cells are being balanced. Sure voltage is more accurate, but my % reading is quite usable. When it's calibrated, it should start to ramp down the power near 30% I believe.

          Originally posted by ribeyesteaks View Post
          I searched the thread and I guess the battery indicator on the bike computer / display is worthless? Why does it show 64% battery left when on the battery level indicator itself it's down to just 1 red dot? I noticed this last weekend when the bike started losing steam (power) as I was riding back from the trails. From my last e-bike, this usually means voltage is dropping as the battery has less juice. I checked the battery indicator and it's at 65%. Checked the battery indicator on the actual battery when I got home, and lo and behold it's nearly drained.

          You guys need to get this fixed.
          % on the X1 is a worthless figure
          % of what is the problem?

          The most you can set the meter to is 52 volts but the battery pack can actually be charged to 13 x 4.2 = 54.6 volts


          Battery voltage tells the exact story
          The battery should not be drained down any more than somewhere around 42-43 volts
          The 860C meter is the way to go
          You can set it for voltage display

          Click image for larger version

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          Comment


            *** PAS lunging in PAS 1 & 2. ***

            Just got my X1 in March 2021 and only have about 60 miles on it. When I ride in PAS 1 or 2 the motor/bike seems to lunge forward and back. Once I go to PAS 3 or higher it seems fine. Any idea on what it could be?

            Local eBike shop says it could be something with the controller, but they didn't look at it. I have:
            • Large Frame
            • Ludicrous Mode
            • Luna M600 Silent Drive Upgrade
            • 860c Display Upgrade

            Thank you.

            Comment


            • TruthAche
              TruthAche commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks KTMracer63. I didn't know exactly what to search for before and now I do. :)

              I looked on the 860c Display settings and the Product Info screen said:
              Hardware Ver. E1.0
              Software Ver. 2.1B-V1

              So I didn't see 14.5 or 14.6. Do you know what 2.1B-V1 is? Stock I guess.

              Found the X1 Riders group, requested a join. Thanks!

              I'm probably going to order the BESST tool.

              I hope the Peek Gear lasts 1000 miles or more. I'll try and be gently with it :D

              Thanks again.

            • Mike Eatough
              Mike Eatough commented
              Editing a comment
              My Peek lasted 600 miles

            • KTMracer63
              KTMracer63 commented
              Editing a comment
              Luna was shipping all Ludi bikes with 14.5
              If levels 1 and 2 suck, or feel non-existent, but level 3 turns on a bit like a light switch, you're on 14.5
              Received my Ludi in late March as well, but I ordered Besst Tool with it already knowing the bike was coming with the crappy 14.5...after a bit of research beforehand.

              I don't have the 860 display...so don't know what to tell ya there as far as where to find the firmware release. I heard pin numbers have to be entered for access/reading...or something to that nature. The length of the file names for the various firmware are a bit lengthy so may not be fully displayed.

              With original display it's very easy to find/see the firmware release.
              Also, the Besst Tool will tell you the release # via its software app (after loaded on computer/laptop), though the Tool has to be connected to the bike/controller and the laptop at same time (there are U2B vids on this). The Besst tool is an interface device that allows the firmware to be swapped around...14.6 is the best one, way more pedal friendly...PAS levels are better spread out and helps with battery consumption. Bottom line, you'll get better use of Levels 1 and 2 whether using the 5PAS or 9PAS settings.

              Buying the Besst Tool at Luna site, you'll get a total of 4 Downloads...3 will be Firmware (Bafang 46.6, Luna 14.5 and Stock 14.6) along with the Besst SW app download. If you buy there, pay attention to the "payment confirmation page" from Luna (don't be fast to close it)...the download links are on that confirmation page....just save them to your computer.
              Last edited by KTMracer63; 05-08-2021, 08:06 AM.

            The 860C does not display the firmware version
            I had to hook up the original meter to mine to be able to see that it was 14.4

            I have around 1500 miles on my PEEK gear that I installed on my Non Ludi X1

            Comment


              Originally posted by EL34 View Post

              % on the X1 is a worthless figure
              % of what is the problem?

              The most you can set the meter to is 52 volts but the battery pack can actually be charged to 13 x 4.2 = 54.6 volts


              Battery voltage tells the exact story
              The battery should not be drained down any more than somewhere around 42-43 volts
              The 860C meter is the way to go
              You can set it for voltage display

              Click image for larger version

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ID:	127677
              Ah, in hindsight, I should have went with the larger display. The one on there is a bit too small and hard to read at times. As for the % figure, I just think it needs some calibration. "% of what" is of course the total battery capacity. That's how it's always been. Of course you can't tell that exactly. But, it's estimated based on voltage readings and applying a filter. The one on the bike computer needs calibration. So far, It seems to me that when the battery reading on the display reaches around 60%, you're getting close to empty.

              Comment


                Originally posted by ribeyesteaks View Post

                Ah, in hindsight, I should have went with the larger display. The one on there is a bit too small and hard to read at times. As for the % figure, I just think it needs some calibration. "% of what" is of course the total battery capacity. That's how it's always been. Of course you can't tell that exactly. But, it's estimated based on voltage readings and applying a filter. The one on the bike computer needs calibration. So far, It seems to me that when the battery reading on the display reaches around 60%, you're getting close to empty.
                % is still subjective and not accurate
                So if your car showed your speed was 34%, would that be helpful

                Battery voltage is the only accurate indicator, not %

                Comment


                  Does anyone know where to find replacement parts for the Quanta rear hub? The sealed bearing inside my free hub body has worn out causing the cassette to no longer be firmly secured.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by EL34 View Post

                    % is still subjective and not accurate
                    So if your car showed your speed was 34%, would that be helpful

                    Battery voltage is the only accurate indicator, not %
                    True, battery voltage is accurate, the only thing to remember is that it is not linear. The first 0.2 or 0.3 volt per cell drop is going to be the first 10% of your battery. The next 0.1-0.2 is going to be the middle 70% and then the voltage will drop very fast over the last 20%. I think it is this non-linearity that the % indicator tries to straighten out. Though very likely most chargers don't charge into the 4.3V/cell range and likely most controllers cut off well before 3.5V/cell.

                    I'm becoming fairly used to the fact a fully charged battery for me is about "91%" and the controller will cut out due to low voltage at about "47%". The % discharge relatively follows the amount of assist used.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by EL34 View Post

                      % is still subjective and not accurate
                      So if your car showed your speed was 34%, would that be helpful

                      Battery voltage is the only accurate indicator, not %
                      That's not even an accurate or good analogy. If your fuel gauge showed 34%, then that's a fair comparison. The reason why a speed gauge in % is not used is because people can't math that fast AND because top speed isn't even a known.

                      Everyone and every electronic device with a battery uses a battery percentage. The voltage reading is stupid. Ever seen an EV car report voltage readings as a gauge of how much electrons are in a battery? No. Because it's stupid.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by K442 View Post

                        True, battery voltage is accurate, the only thing to remember is that it is not linear. The first 0.2 or 0.3 volt per cell drop is going to be the first 10% of your battery. The next 0.1-0.2 is going to be the middle 70% and then the voltage will drop very fast over the last 20%. I think it is this non-linearity that the % indicator tries to straighten out. Though very likely most chargers don't charge into the 4.3V/cell range and likely most controllers cut off well before 3.5V/cell.

                        I'm becoming fairly used to the fact a fully charged battery for me is about "91%" and the controller will cut out due to low voltage at about "47%". The % discharge relatively follows the amount of assist used.

                        Exactly. This is why you apply a filter to extrapolate a percentage from the discharge curve. No one knows how much juice is left based on a voltage reading.

                        Comment


                          The "best" battery gauge is an amp-hour meter.

                          Li-ion batteries like we use tend to have extremely high coulomb efficiency meaning the number of electrons put in comes very, very close to how many electrons come out. Over time the number will decrease but from day-to-day however in simplistic terms it's the number of electrons left in the battery from the charge cycle that gives you the best estimate of state-of-charge (SOC)

                          If Li-ion are so extremely coulomb efficient why aren't they just as energy efficient? It takes more voltage to push the electrons in than the voltage they come out at. Since power = volts * amps and energy = power * time if the charge/discharge are at constant currents then the time will be nearly the same since the coulomb efficiency is so high so the difference will be less energy out than in because the voltage during discharge is lower than charge. There are other ways of looking at it but that's an easy way and it explains why measuring energy used while a very useful measurement isn't as good as amp-hours when it comes to measuring SOC.

                          Not everyone has a amp-hour totalizer on their bike. You need to wire in a shunt in order to measure current and while not expensive they aren't free and usually don't come standard

                          So if we don't have a good way to measure current and totalize it (integrate over time to get amp-hours) then we're left with only one thing left to use - voltage

                          Now that curve in the prior post is BS. It's not so flat in the middle. A li-ion battery like we use has a discharge curve that looks more like this:

                          Click image for larger version

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                          And we don't usually use the last 10-20% at all (almost no point to it since the power is dropping so fast and we get more voltage sag) so that the part of the curve we're really interested in has a fair amount of slope that's constant enough once we get past the first 10% or so.

                          So if all we have is voltage we can get a reasonable idea where we are - especially once we get some time with a given battery and learn what the voltage display (whether bar graph, % or decimal voltage) means for our setup with regards to SOC.... then if we are relegated to using voltage should we choose bar graph, % or voltage? I say whatever gives us the most resolution as long as it covers the entire range of the battery. Typically we get 0.1V resolution with a voltmeter although some have 0.01V. On a percent gauge if we are going with a 52V battery and calling 58.8V 100% and have an LVCO of 43V at 0% then each percent = 0.158V and the voltmeter wins the resolution contest even if only one decimal. Bar graphs aren't even in the game.


                          In summary, voltage is a rough method that when a user "learns" their machine can have a repeatable and pretty good idea of where they are in the discharge cycle. A voltmeter gives the best resolution and is more likely to accommodate the entire range of the battery. However an amp-hour meter is the best way if we want accuracy and a linear representation ...
                          Last edited by AZguy; 05-12-2021, 02:40 PM. Reason: fixed picture link

                          Comment


                          • AZguy
                            AZguy commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Math? I don't do *any* math.... I just know what the different voltages mean to me for the different batteries I have... you learn what the voltage means like you learn when to shift, etc. It'd be like doing math to figure out when to shift or how much pressure to put on the handlebars to turn... don't need no math, you just learn

                            E.g. with my little 48V batteries when they read 48V they're getting past half way, at 45V they're low, time to be close to home

                            Then again I have an amp-hour meter



                            You can learn a % gauge too (especially if it at least covers the whole range of voltages the battery will run at) even when the percent doesn't really mean anything except a translation of the voltage (that's all they ever are unless you measure amp-hours)... that was a point I was trying to make

                          • ribeyesteaks
                            ribeyesteaks commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I agree with Brian99. Voltage is not a rough method. It's garbage. No one has the time to go out and figure out what their discharge curves look and feel like on their particular LiION battery powered device. It's the dumbest thing on the planet to even suggest. And the worse thing is, you're likely shooting a moving target since the discharge curves get even worse over time as the battery degrades. It's why there are MUCH smarter people than anyone in this forum who have been tackling this issue for awhile use a battery percentage based on estimates and extrapolations built in software. No one is going to put an amp hour meter into a god damn smart phone. It's not even practical and costs too much money to make it worth while.

                          • AZguy
                            AZguy commented
                            Editing a comment
                            The cost of an amp-hour meter (coulomb counter) is a shunt feeding the microcontroller A/D and a few lines of code - don't be silly. Plenty of consumer products with battery management systems do this, e.g. most all modern laptops do.

                            % meters on bikes are just voltmeters displaying voltage as % (linear conversion) anyway - might as well get voltage as it has more meaning even if all you are doing is just learning the SOC for a given battery

                            But if someone prefers a voltmeter that has a readout in % instead of volts - good for them if that's what they have

                            Me, I'm sticking with my amp-hours and voltage... I'm so accustomed to them on my bike I know exactly what's going on with whichever battery I'm using for that ride - I've got five or six batteries that behave a bit differently so for me there's far more power with the numbers... but that's just me

                            YMMV

                            Ride on
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