Luna BBSHD Ludicrous V2 controller documentation

[marcos]

A quick update about the BLE support on windows. I just tested on a windows 10 and it worked with the integrated radio, but I had to do an extra step.

While android, linux (and probably) mac builds of vesc tool can handle the whole scanning/pairing/connecting on their own, the windows API doesn't expose the whole set of commands.

So on windows I had to go to system settings and manually connect to the BBSHD (its shown as BLE BUILTIN[...]). Once the first handshake is made by windows, VESC Tool can see and connect to the device.

FWIW, this was tested on my mate's DELL XPS 15.

[marcos]

If it told you that the firmware is too new that's a good thing because it means that the BT communication is working, that's solid progress.

For logging you need to point the app to a directory to store the logs. I used "file:///sdcard/DCIM/Camera" so they get backed up along with my photos. Not sure why it says sdcard (my phone doesn't have one). Could you tell me which phone you use? We are catching a bug in this file picker dialog that only happens in some phone models.

[StvMan]

I bought a cheap Android tablet RCA RCT6873W42

[marcos]

Noted, thanks. Today we are testing a small code change to see if it fixes the log directory bug on some devices.

[MattBzura]

I’ve been loving this V2 controller! With a 52v pack it’s faster, quieter, and it’s got tons more torque - all while being more efficient with battery consumption.

I just briefly tested a 72v pack out, and it was a blast. But I’m a little confused because I can’t get my new EggRider display to recognize the 72v pack. It’s showing 11.2v on the display, and I can’t enter the correct voltage levels in the EggRider settings.

I want sure what controller to chose from in the EggRider setup so I tried a few and then just set it to auto.

Any advice for 72v with the Luna EggRider?

[marcos]

Hey Matt,
it is normal that your eggrider shows 11.2V with the 72V battery. To prevent display catching fire the ludi V2 hardware will automatically reduce the display voltage to a safe 12V, so your display is showing that. We worked with eggrider developers to add a communication packet so the ludi can print the correct battery voltage and it has been working well for a couple of months now.

You will have to update the eggrider display firmware (we will provide it) and the ludi firmware because I think this protocol change didn't make it into the last firmware deployment.

My plan is to spend this week on the dyno testing some hardware and firmware tweaks I made, next week test with luna staff, and as soon that's done deploy the new firmware for you all

[marcos]

Eggrider protocol is "Bafang". Haven't checked if "Auto" works

[Bullfrog]

I am also having trouble getting my set up to work with a 72v battery (everything works great with a 52v battery). Updated the firmware on my Eggrider and the 72v battery still doesn't work. Should updating the V2 controller firmware solve my problem? With the 72v battery, I can turn the Eggrider on using the Eggrider's power button but I can't turn it off. Thanks

[marcos]

Hi Bullfrog, you should connect over bluetooth to the controller and change the battery settings, there are 3 presets, one of them is for a 72V system which auto-fills the voltage thresholds. As for the turn-off, let me check the schematic

[StvMan]

As the power levels on a V2 are primarily controlled by the Eggrider display, is it possible to go stealth by eliminating the egg with a programming cable? What power level would it default to? Steve

[marcos]

Without a display it would default to level 1, at least that's what the current firmware does during initialization.
Keep in mind the display is also in charge of turning on the controller by shorting PL (PowerLock) to Batt+. So without a display it will be always off.

[StvMan]

Thanks Marcos....yes, I understand about the powering up. On other controllers I can use the programming cable (green julet) as a “key” as it shorts the brown and red wires internally. I am assuming the same would occur on the V2.

Is there a way to mimic a default power setting 5 via a profile, so I could run without the egg?

[marcos]

PAS level 5 would mean a 20% assist power.
The closest thing for the current firmware would be setting max PAS assist to 100%, which in the default level 1 is 10% assist power. I can add a manual override from the command line (no fancy buttons) for the next firmware release to make the ludi start in a power level different than 1.

[AZguy]

I haven't been a fan of the eggriders (at least last time I checked) and so far it's one if the biggest reasons I'm sort of only casually interested in this controller - why can't we use a traditional bafang like C965?

My interest would go up considerably and if I was giving a future request it would be to eliminate the display altogether and just have some simple up/down buttons to change PAS (I'm completely ok with changing it blindly) as the sole UI...

[marcos]

You can use a traditional bafang display as long as you use a 52V battery. If you use 72V, the display will be supplied with 12V which isn't enough to power it up, and even if it worked it would display battery voltage as 12v.

The up/down buttons are not simple wires coming to the controller, there is an MCU inside the display that reads buttons and transmits a packet to the controller, so you kinda need a display.

A workaround could be reducing the eggrider brightness to almost zero and only use its buttons (not sure how to tell if the controller is turned on or not).

Or change the phase current from the android app.

Or developing something that reads buttons and sends the corresponding UART packets.

Personally I like the minimalism of the eggrider, and I look forward to have even tighter integration between the v2 and that display

[AZguy]

You can use a traditional bafang display as long as you use a 52V battery. If you use 72V, the display will be supplied with 12V which isn't enough to power it up, and even if it worked it would display battery voltage as 12v.

The up/down buttons are not simple wires coming to the controller, there is an MCU inside the display that reads buttons and transmits a packet to the controller, so you kinda need a display.

A workaround could be reducing the eggrider brightness to almost zero and only use its buttons (not sure how to tell if the controller is turned on or not).

Or change the phase current from the android app.

Or developing something that reads buttons and sends the corresponding UART packets.

Personally I like the minimalism of the eggrider, and I look forward to have even tighter integration between the v2 and that display

Ahhh that's good to hear! ;-}

I'm very intimate with the bafang protocol... hacked it about four years ago and built a microcontroller/wifi with web server to interface it but that all got backburnered when some very attractive business opportunities came up... I've got more time right now and have considered dusting it off but in four years I'd want to hitch my wagon to a different processor... still have the code and it wouldn't take a lot to port at least the bafang controller interface part of it.. the protocol interface was the easy part tho... the web server was a mucho pain

Making a simple button interface that only does the buttons would be pretty easy... packaging is likely harder than the rest to be frank...

One of the things I don't like about the eggrider is you can't kill the backlight and if I can't be able to ride with any device "black" at night it won't go on the bike... period... maybe they've changed things since I last chatted with them but they didn't seem to "get" that requirement

I don't see myself going to more than 52V anytime soon so good to hear a simple display will work - I'm more interested and I'll likely pay closer attention

Since I clearly haven't been paying close attention let me ask a quick question - I see you mentioning an android app, is that necessary for entering parameters, etc? Or can it be done with the serial connection and a PC?


On a very different note, what part of Argentina are you in? Last few years I was working with a company down in Santa Fe... I made it down to Patagonia in the 90's and also spent a lot of time over in Chile... some day I'll make it back down there... wonderful countries and awesome people

[marcos]

I'm very intimate with the bafang protocol... hacked it about four years ago and built a microcontroller/wifi with web server to interface it but that all got backburnered when some very attractive business opportunities came up... I've got more time right now and have considered dusting it off but in four years I'd want to hitch my wagon to a different processor... still have the code and it wouldn't take a lot to port at least the bafang controller interface part of it.. the protocol interface was the easy part tho... the web server was a mucho pain

Making a simple button interface that only does the buttons would be pretty easy... packaging is likely harder than the rest to be frank...

One of the things I don't like about the eggrider is you can't kill the backlight and if I can't be able to ride with any device "black" at night it won't go on the bike... period... maybe they've changed things since I last chatted with them but they didn't seem to "get" that requirement

I don't see myself going to more than 52V anytime soon so good to hear a simple display will work - I'm more interested and I'll likely pay closer attention

Since I clearly haven't been paying close attention let me ask a quick question - I see you mentioning an android app, is that necessary for entering parameters, etc? Or can it be done with the serial connection and a PC?

Well, if you enjoyed thinkering with the old bafang, with the Ludi v2 you have way more freedom because VESC controllers run open source firmware, which means we have the obligation of providing the source code to anyone who got our binaries, so they can build the binary from sources. I try to not entertain the idea because its easy to brick/damage a controller and because I'm still tidying up the code to get it merged into the mainstream vesc repository. An old-ish ludi v2 code is online, but its not the latest and greatest.

The serial connection running on the display cable has minimal support of the bafang protocol, not much to play with there. However there is an USB connector and a Bluetooth interface exposing the full VESC protocol where you can do realtime logging, tune, update firmware, etc. The android app (VESC Tool) provides a user interface for all of this, and the same GUI is available for windows, linux and i think mac. Screenshots here

On a very different note, what part of Argentina are you in? Last few years I was working with a company down in Santa Fe... I made it down to Patagonia in the 90's and also spent a lot of time over in Chile... some day I'll make it back down there... wonderful countries and awesome people

Yeah I spent most of my vacations it the Patagonia, roadtripped it hard and worked for a while in Bariloche on aerospace stuff. I live on the east coast, 600km south of buenos aires. Its a really nice and quiet place to live.

[marcos]

FYI I just coded a way to configure the initial PAS level, will be part of this week testing at luna. Its mostly aimed at users without a display or buttons. If you have an eggrider it will remember the last level set.

[StvMan]

Great! ...with your new config does the last used profile (if applied) also remain (ie max Watt, PAS %, etc)? ....Thanks again Marcos....

[marcos]

yes, profiles are stored in non-volatile memory

[AZguy]

Well, if you enjoyed thinkering with the old bafang, with the Ludi v2 you have way more freedom because VESC controllers run open source firmware, which means we have the obligation of providing the source code to anyone who got our binaries, so they can build the binary from sources. I try to not entertain the idea because its easy to brick/damage a controller and because I'm still tidying up the code to get it merged into the mainstream vesc repository. An old-ish ludi v2 code is online, but its not the latest and greatest.

I doubt I'd have much interest in messing with the code but it's really nice to have to be able to see what's going on. I could see if I really needed a feature at least the ability is there but once you fork it you own that fork! I wouldn't mind two GPIO's for dealing with PAS up/down without serial though

The serial connection running on the display cable has minimal support of the bafang protocol, not much to play with there. However there is an USB connector and a Bluetooth interface exposing the full VESC protocol where you can do realtime logging, tune, update firmware, etc. The android app (VESC Tool) provides a user interface for all of this, and the same GUI is available for windows, linux and i think mac. Screenshots here

I think the only really important bafang protocol needed, at least the running part of the protocol is to change PAS levels... I saw the gui and I'm not an android guy - presently I don't have anything with it beyond a VM but as long as there's a win/linux ui I'm good

I think it will just matter how much time I have on my hands whether/when I dive into this... priorities, priorities and always limited bandwidth... have bills to pay and everything...

Yeah I spent most of my vacations it the Patagonia, roadtripped it hard and worked for a while in Bariloche on aerospace stuff. I live on the east coast, 600km south of buenos aires. Its a really nice and quiet place to live.

I did a solo walkabout down there in the mid-90's

I made it to Bariloche via Lago Todos Los Santos when I was waiting in Puerto Montt for the ship to Puerto Natales... some of the most awesome country I've ever been in and I was super lucky with the weather... the couple of weeks I was in the Puerto Montt area only had a couple of rainy days and ship ride was excellent except for the normal wind... spent a week in Torres del Paine and also saw not much rain - plenty of wind and my traveling mates for the Torres were getting beat down by it but I wasn't bothered at all really... spent a couple of weeks after that down in Punta Arenas and had way too much fun there - pretty sure I hurt my liver LOL... rain started up and so I flew back to Puerto Montt and it was silly rainy so overlanded back up to Santiago, rain the whole way... seriously lightened my load from all that cold weather backpacking in Patagonia and did some silly minimalist travel for a week or so up to La Serena wearing shorts and only carrying one spare set of light clothes in a tiny pack - was so liberating... Ended up in and out of Santiago for a couple of months... really took a liking to that city as far as cities go... hit a lot of wineries too...

Been trying to figure out a way to get back for business but prospects aren't getting better... I've got an associate in Santiago and we were working with that company in Santa Fe but ended up getting the rights to build the product so not much reason to deal with them at this point... oh well...

[ncmired]

Cadence question - does the motor still peak out at the (I believe) 150 top pedal RPM or cadence unloaded, or is it even higher with the V2 controller?

Does this value show up in the data stream - I'm guessing no, as I don't know of any sensor for it?

[marcos]

Cadence question - does the motor still peak out at the (I believe) 150 top pedal RPM or cadence unloaded, or is it even higher with the V2 controller?

Does this value show up in the data stream - I'm guessing no, as I don't know of any sensor for it?

The pedal RPM is configurable from the GUI, here:

In this screenshot, at 10 pedal RPM you would have 0% assist, and at 120 pedal RPM (and beyond) you would have maximum assist. In this case max assist current is 8% of 150 phase Amps. These parameters are user-editable so you could set the RPM end at 800rpm and you'll have to pedal like crazy to get it to max out. Does this answer your question?

I haven't thought about including pedal RPM into the real time data plots, its a good idea. I need to check if its too difficult to merge into vesc as it reduces bandwidth for all those who don't have PAS.

[fattiejack]

I recently upgraded my BBSHD with the Ludi V2 and am using the latest Luna Vesca app. I am not able to find this screen with all of these great adjustments that can be made. Can you say why that is, Marcos? Thanks!

[ncmired]

Hi Marcus;

Apologies, I phrased my question poorly - I meant the top pedal axle RPM via the throttle, motor unloaded. Does V2 controller increase the RPM? I'd guess not by much (over the max 150 RPM I've seen referenced often).

What I have been doing with the intent of or hope when riding for maximum range efficiency, is to match the bike gear to the terrain, so that the motor is spinning flat out, and just being (for the most part) very lightly loaded. Think locked-on throttle and a "keep the motor spinning" mindset. On level ground, for my wind load, weight load, and bike drag, for most of my bikes this returns approx. 20mph, and a 300watts guesstimate draw (hard to visually average the jumping display indicator and pay attention to the road). And, at a pedal cadence I can't possibly match.

I've always been a stomper, or relatively low pedal cadence rider - a bad match for how fast I've been lead to believe the BBSHD wants to turn.

[marcos]

Oh. Yes, the controller increases the top speed by about 25%, unlocked by an algorithm I contributed a while ago, so yes pedals move faster. 72V setups also spin faster.

As you stated, a motor running low RPMs is not very efficient. To produce the same amount of watts it has to flow more current through the windings, and on these small motors I²R losses are pretty dominant.

[StvMan]

Are there any special precautions and /or advantages in tying in a Cycle Analyst V3 into the Ludi V2 controller?

[marcos]

Are there any special precautions and /or advantages in tying in a Cycle Analyst V3 into the Ludi V2 controller?

Special precautions:
* It was never attempted
* It was not designed to be compatible with the CA

Advantages:
I don't see any, I think out of the box the ludi software is already outperforming the CA, not sure why would anyone want to add all that wiring for features that are built into this controller.

One thing it lacks is cadence logging and cadence stats, but instead of spending time and $ on a CA I would encourage people to help the vesc community to implement it. That way (and this is valid for any new feature) the new open source code becomes available for anyone who would like to use it or learn form it.

[StvMan]

Understood....Thanks.