Luna M600 Ludicrous V2 controller documentation

[marcos]

Proud owner of the amazing M600 Ludicrous V2 controller?
Here you will find all the info, software, documentation and support from the engineering team to get the best out of this extreme piece of tech.

<<<< DOWNLOAD THE LATEST USER MANUAL >>>>

The USER MANUAL contains updated links to software downloads. The development pace is pretty fast right now so the manual is a fresh export from our internal google docs documentation to keep users updated.



Latest software release: 2022-11-25
Firmware: v6.0
Android app: V6
Apple app V6


Support note about the X2 with the Ludicrous V2 controller:

Also you do need an Android OR an Apple device if you plan on getting the Ludicrous controller, you will need it to update the firmware, program the controller and also for troubleshooting!

As of version 2022-11-25 the firmware is compatible with VESC Tool for iOS and the VESC app on the google/Android store. Bikes are shipping with the latest compatible firmware.

The previous VESC Android app does not have the new firmwares , If you don't have the Version 6 app installed, please download the VESC app from the Android/google store. The new version app contains all our latest firmware and will auto detect the controller and propose you the right firmware.

So to flash your M600 V2 controller to V6.0, you need to update or download the V6 app and follow our video, once done you will need to calibrate the encoder.

If you need to replace the controller this is the video you need to watch, as you can ruin the controller.

CHANGELOG:

2022.11.25 (V6.0)
*M600 v2 is now officially supported in the VESC codebase and integrated into VESC Tool for iOS and Android. From now on it will receive updates from the app stores
*Fixed bugs and general improvements

2022.05.09:
* Power button hold time for shutdown reduced
* Don't shutdown if the power button is pressed for a long time
* Start CANbus thread sooner to avoid Error25 on startup

2022.05.05:
* Quicker battery % settling time on startup
* PAS ramp down shortened to 0.35s max
* Offset Correction button color follows light/dark theme
* PAS filtering can be tuned from the app
* Quicker response to button shutdown
* Show firmware name (YYYY.MM.DD)

2022.04.29:
* Wheel size support in DPC-240 display
* Fix DPC-240 speed limit value to a road-legal 20mph
* Add Field Weakening sliders
* Remove Upload All button
* Guide users through encoder correction steps
* Read settings on UI startup
* Use imperial according to system locale
* Fix gauge cluster settings dialog
* Wheel diameter based on standard rim sizes instead of rim+tire diameter
* Friendlier warnings during update process
* Fix version not showing in firmware tab
* Estimate range from battery level and average Wh/km
* Estimate battery level from resting voltage and Wh tracker
* Store encoder offset and odometer in ram4 to make it persistent across fw updates
* Add throttle, torque sensor and 12V rail data to the logs
* Protocol compatible with VESC Tool for iOS and android from app stores
* Custom UI loads 15% quicker
* 10 minute auto shutdown
* Battery % more filtered
* Shift sensor support on new hardwares
* M600 prevent shutdowns in PAS 0
* M600 odometer support
* Light and Dark themes supported
* Firmwares rebased to the newest official vesc release
* App remembers logging enable switch
* Disable pairing to prevent lockouts
* This is a 32bit app build, works on 32bit and 64bit devices
* Motor can produce torque while spinning in reverse
* Fixes shutdown when accessing the display settings menu
* Motor Temperature cutoff starts at 105°C and ends at 120°C
* Quicker throttle ramping

Plus over 250 contributions to the VESC codebase for under the hood improvements, see VESC changelog.

[rtp]

Following up on gear sensor/brake cutoffs..the M600 has inputs for the sensors. Ive found a single source for the cable so far with 2x cable price for shipping, but considering it’s literally a 5v signal….two Qs:
1. Do you happen to have an M600> Should be able to simply jump 2 pins to confirm the controller can see it, no? If not, I’ll buy the cable but are we able to log all sensor/inputs?
2. I think you said 5v was ‘cutoff not engaged’/normal state? That seems backwards but if true it seems like both some detection of inputs would be required, or a flaky sensor would kill the bike (e.g. on normal bbs*, ultra) when a sensor went out vs just sensor inop..?

Q from manual:
”PAS Amps
The Cadence-based Pedal Assist algorithm generates torque based on pedaling speed. This slider sets the max phase Amps produced by PAS.”
I hope this is a remnant from the BBSHD manual…what about torque sensor and or blend of torque and cadence sensors as inputs? Nearly every other setting is throttle based - most choosing M600 over Ultra I’d say are less ‘ride by throttle’ motivated, but tunability of tq sensor response, etc. are key.

Also, can desktop VESC tool adjust more parameters than the mobile app or only display and plot from logs?

[marcos]

Yes, the shiftsensor gear doesnt land where I expected so the boards need a wire soldered bypassing 2 connector pins. We have been installing that bodge wire by hand in our stock of controllers so new bikes shipped out should be ready hardware-wise. I can give details on that bypass upon request.
Software wise I've been told that the sensor should disengage the motor for a bit longer time, I can tune that later. I guess a bigger problem is sourcing a bunch of sensors, not sure how the sales part will be handled.

[perseverantone]

My Dad has the M600 With Magura MT5 without the cutoff built-in(Unlike the MT5e) Would buying the Brake engine Cut-off cables & connecting it to my M600 & Magura mt5 work? I honestly wish my dad had taken my advice & spent the extra money and gone with Luna. I tried to convince him of their superiority but he thought we could figure it all out ourselves. Boy am I learning fast it's NOT EASY. lol But I'm trying to make him the safest bike for his money. He bought the FLX F5 Trail(SADLY UNDERPOWERED at 500watts. Running stock m600 motor) Also it's missing a few things, in the build I didn't expect it to miss. One is the Break engine cutoff sensors. I also read when done right breaking can be integrated to recharge some batteries? But is that something easily changed. I am very much a lifetime Motorcycle rider & new to E-MTB.

[perseverantone]

Does the most recent shipments of LUNA X2 Ludicrous Shipped in August of 2022 have the Gear Sensor?

[marcos]

1. Do you happen to have an M600> Should be able to simply jump 2 pins to confirm the controller can see it, no? If not, I’ll buy the cable but are we able to log all sensor/inputs?

I have an M600, I just don't have the cable. If you beat me on checking this you only need a multimeter to track where the signal is landing on the controller. Should reach pin 15 of the white connector that takes care of this.

2. I think you said 5v was ‘cutoff not engaged’/normal state? That seems backwards but if true it seems like both some detection of inputs would be required, or a flaky sensor would kill the bike (e.g. on normal bbs*, ultra) when a sensor went out vs just sensor inop..?

Its called an open drain signal, there is a pullup resistor that by default drives weakly the signal to 5V. This way many "devices" like the 2 brake levers and a gear sensor can pull down the line to 0V on its own and the microcontroller can read the change. The gearshift sensor has an extra twist but basically it should work too.

Q from manual:
”PAS Amps
The Cadence-based Pedal Assist algorithm generates torque based on pedaling speed. This slider sets the max phase Amps produced by PAS.”
I hope this is a remnant from the BBSHD manual…

Oops, yes I just fixed that, it got copypasted from the bbshd v2 manual.

what about torque sensor and or blend of torque and cadence sensors as inputs?

It can read and process the cadence signals (its the same style used in the bbshd) but I haven't coded a blend of cadence and torque, for now it only uses torque. Main task on me is getting this code merged so people can take a look at it.
I'm not exactly sure how to approach the torque+cadence blend and make it tunable for the user tbh, cadence response is very slow compared with torque.

Also, can desktop VESC tool adjust more parameters than the mobile app or only display and plot from logs?

Sort of. desktop VESC tool has full access but we strongly don't recommend changing anything with it, I see so many ways to brick or simply destroy a controller, gears, motor, battery, property, etc; its even possible to get the throttle locked at 100% if you mess with the throttle settings.

One thing worth noting is that the V2 can't spin the motor with the usb connected because the magnetic encoder will fault if the controller is not in the right place. This limits the connecting options to bluetooth (only available on linux and android builds) and CANbus (only available on linux).

[rtp]

"Its called an open drain signal, there is a pullup resistor that by default drives weakly the signal to 5V. This way many "devices" like the 2 brake levers and a gear sensor can pull down the line to 0V on its own and the microcontroller can read the change. The gearshift sensor has an extra twist but basically it should work too."

The pinout seems like 3 pins on those connectors, I had assumed it was simply 2 pin 5v and GND. Is the 3rd pin used? Can we just breadboard it from pin X to Y? I really had assumed 'closing' (well moving magnet away on brake lever would allow circuit to close, or moving gear sensor pivot during shift) was simply closing the circuit to apply 5v onto the second pin. (Long ago I was an electronics tech but man, sure wish I remember more :-/ ). Are all 3 pins used or no? (e.g. 5v constant, GND + signal to 16)? I've had crap luck in finding too much useful info although I have the dealer manual and some misc images saved off..

RE: Tq sensor
"It can read and process the cadence signals (its the same style used in the bbshd) but I haven't coded a blend of cadence and torque, for now it only uses torque. Main task on me is getting this code merged so people can take a look at it.
I'm not exactly sure how to approach the torque+cadence blend and make it tunable for the user tbh, cadence response is very slow compared with torque."

Interesting. I know that Innotrace at least (for Ultra) effectively has a slider/values of each for Tq sensor and Cadence sensor. I'm sure there's probably some clever write-ups out there RE: sensor fusion/sensor blending. Didn't know the difference/slowness in cadence sensor - I thought there was not just the magnetic one on the wheel but also a cadence sensor built into the BB/motor? Might be solving a non-problem, although I could see for example, at higher cadence, ramp up assist weighted more heavily on cadence vs tq input, or it *seems* like you'd max out human power before motor power, but just a guess..will know once I get the bike.

RE: VESC Desktop
"Sort of. desktop VESC tool has full access but we strongly don't recommend changing anything with it, I see so many ways to brick or simply destroy a controller, gears, motor, battery, property, etc; its even possible to get the throttle locked at 100% if you mess with the throttle settings."
Understood. I think I was surprised when digging into the Ludiv2 manual at some 'missing' settings, like ability to adjust power curve, and didn't actually see how/where to change # of assistance levels, run-on time after tq/cadence stops, etc - stuff from bafang and other controllers... Will wind up digging into it at some point and try to doc or ask Qs as I hit, but this one should probably be in bold in the manual itself... along with your last comment - can't spin motor (or calibrate) via VESC?

By BT or CANBUS Linux - I'm going to assume this probably also is on the MacOS builds, or are changes still on a private branch/project and not yet published? Note a huge deal, I've got plenty of Linux systems and VMs, but .. ?



"

[marcos]

Those sensors are usually hall sensors which need a power supply (5v+gnd) and an output signal, so yes its a 3 wire situation.

Lets see what people think about cadence when you guys get the bike. When I feel lazy and want an easy ride (cadence-like) I just increase the assist level and feels great.

Some of the settings you mentioned are actually defined in the display (not the controller) like # of levels and auto shutdown. Throttle curve is tunable from the app, it just lacks a fancy 2D plot like the desktop version,
Bluetooth connectivity is already part of the official VESC Tool, I coded and merged CANbus a couple of years ago (https://bit.ly/3d9h42M) but you have uncomment a define and build from sources to enable it. I never tried anything of this on MacOS though

[rtp]

Got it, thanks. I have a few other places to try for a cable, otherwise will just order one and see when it shows up.
Also sure thing on see how it feels - mainly thinking internally as I'm sure there are some neat things to do when able to determine or derive speed, pedal cadence, and torque together.. ;) Now if you added a gear sensor, and incremented/decremented (I suspect the sensors out there are really just signal = moving cable vs directional, but maybe pair of sensors on the shift levers - then you'd have a gear reference as another input which might change behavior, e.g. lean towards higher cadence vs tq at highest gear looking for top speed, etc. Again, just thinking aloud - will see how it feels once she gets here. :)

macOS is well... 'more or less POSIX/Linux.' Fun history and also why it's thread performance isn't, or at least wasn't all that great... Jobs was tossed from Apple,. he started NeXT, which created a new OS and awesome-for-the-time but $$$$ systems, with the OS mostly based on a BSD variant. Apple brought him back, and 'mach' (NeXt kernel) and friends formed the basis of OS X etc. I used to port code across some crazy # of *nix platforms/versions (literally well over 17 I think), so expecting the usual toolchains n place, gcc/g++, glibc etc in place, most should work at least at the lower / system level. Not a clue on the UI side though. I know someone was maintaining updated macOS ports, will see what they did noting the mention of lots of 'danger, do not touch' settings are accessible, etc.

[PadreParada]

Hi Marcos, Do you know if it possible to buy the ludicrous V2 controller for any M600 motor ?
Kind regards

[K442]

Well I, for one, will gladly offer to help with testing. If you're open to selling me a V2 controller, I'd be happy to help document / photograph any change out process, work through any technical issues, come up with any solutions for physical issues, etc.

[perseverantone]

If we were to ship the M600 motor in to be upgraded with the Ludicrous controller can you guys do it? But say we only wanted 1500watts Peak out if and running at 1000watts constant. Could LUNA do that for us. The M600 500watt is not powerful enough for our really hilly area. Constantly going up LONG Ascents just to leave the area around our house. I am personally Not buying an e-bike until I can get either the Luna Z1 or the APEX(if my dreams were to come true I would buy the APEX Today, but I know it only comes out once a year if that.) Hoping this year I am a lucky owner of an APEX. But if I was to decide to buy the LUNA Z1, would I be able to add a Rohloff 14speed aftermarket if I chose to?

[marcos]

If you have a luna X1 soon you'll be able to order a ludi controller and install it yourself. However 1000W continuous is just not going happen from this motor, at least not with a 48V battery.

[rtp]

What’s the min Android version to run the mobile app? Going to have to pick up a used phone for the app…

[ncmired]

I use a low end bluetooth capable Android tablet, which may be cheaper to find (and more useful) than a phone you end up not using for anything else. Connect the tablet to your wireless, then locate in near your bike work area for the quickie part spec lookup, music source, etc.

[Sebz]

Marcos.. I think that someone was me on the first run of the BBSHD V2 controller.. I had an old android phone and could not run the VESC app and had to buy a cheap amazon BLU phone!

[StvMan]

I used a low end android tablet on the BBSHD V2 and had to switch to a better android phone due to the poor brightness capability of the cheap tablet.

[rtp]

From the decent writeup Seth did here: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum...-luna-z1-vs-x2

"Oh it's limited electronically to 28mph on the stock controller and you cannot program it yourself, there is nothing you can do to change the behavior of the motor."

The v2 I am assuming has the speed restriction removed?
Can non-Ludi users use BESST to raise the limit? (although I'm not sure the M600 will really go much beyond that without superman legs in effect)

[Sebz]

yes the stock controller is limited to 28mph at the factory VIA firmware (the famous 14.6).. if you change the firmware using the BESST tool (if you have one) you can use Luna's own firmware to get no speed limit, but you get different pedal assist too and that is a whole different topic that was well debated on another thread. So by popular demand , we started to use in September the newest firmware (with the speed limit).

But again this thread is about the V2 controller and you don't have a 28mph speed limit!

Personally having 28mph on a enduro bike does not bother me.. I never go past 28mph on a single trail.. if I go past that it's downhill and I don't need a motor ;)

[rtp]

Yep, the Q is more for completeness as otherwise someone else will ask it. Didn't expect there to be a limit with the V2.
Last 15 mile single-track and double track ride averaged a bit over 10mph, so agree on 'do you really need > 28mph?' for pure trail use, but some, myself included also do some road time. I'm not expecting much beyond that speed even with the V2 from the M600, but artificial limits are just, well - silly IMO.

[rtp]

Just adding for anyone else - have had my Ludi v2 X2 to 30mph+, but note the Bafang display settings with Ludi will show speed limit 0, and also wheel size 0. Real settings are in the app and vest tool, etc.

[rtp]

Ok, failing to install the Android app so far.

It seems there are two different download links in the doc - one up top, then the second further on...I suspect the second one is BBHSD and the one at the top is newer, but either way - fails to install, including via an APK installer with install from unknown sources allowed to the APK install app. Android 11 A02 phone.

Going to see if I can sort any logs after being off of Android for...a looong time.

[marcos]

rtp, this might get boring so I'll PM you. Will get back here when we get results.

Yes there were 2 different links, thanks for reporting, its fixed now. They were the same app but the later has the m600 firmware included. Both can talk to m600 and bbshd V2's.

[marcos]

as a partial follow-up, the issue might be related to not having enough ram. VESC doesn't have a minimum phone requirements documented, I poked Benjamin (VESC Architect) to find out more about this but meanwhile rtp is getting his phone upgraded and I'm trying to know more about what is exactly the problem on these low end phones

[marcos]

turns out the app was built for 64 bit devices, and the cheap phones are 32bit. We are field-testing a 32bit build that so far is working everywhere so will update the user manual link soon. Thanks rtp for reporting and helping with this

[rtp]

Put the bike together and as you know, sorting the android app still, checking torque values etc., but Qs on the display behavior for LudiV2 (on the bike, not the app).
Wheel size is showing as 0inches, and speed limit is set to 0, and neither seem to be able to be set from the display. Expected and set from Android app or ?

[marcos]

yes, wheel size is set from the app. Display shows 0inches because I didn't figure out that part of bafang protocol, gave it a try but figured it was kind of pointless effort. Same for speed limit as we don't really have a speed limiter, only rpm limiter.

[rtp]

Got it, assumed as much as it wasn't limited to 0 on my quick ride and the speedo seemed in realm of plausibility. :)
Probably worth adding to the doc so others won't ask the same.. ?

[carlb4u]

Help just got X2 and love the bike but cannot get luna vesc apk to install on android
Apple guy, so I just figured by cheap phone for bike display only,I have bought 3 different phones and tried on a tablet to install Luna APK and keep getting same error message all devices will run standard VESC tool from goggle play store
phone and tablet are:

ulefone note 6 (unlocked)
samsung galaxy A11(tracfone)
galaxy Tab A
moto E6( tracfone)
google play VESC app installs on all devices
Error message on all devices is:

App not installed
INSTALL_FAILED_NO_MATCHING_ABIS; Failed to extract native libaries,res=113

Please Help !!!
Do I need to buy certain model or build of android ?
Do I need Phone activated?
can anyone recommend low end ($100 range Phone that works with app?

Thank you

[Steelsnow]

Something I’ve seen mentioned before, did you download the general VESC app (where you can pay for a pro version) or the Luna VESC app listed above? (link is in the manual)

[rtp]

See if this works for you. Note this is a beta/test build from Marcos as the linked Luna app version is 64 bit and some phones stil have 32 bit OS and libraries installed…causing app install failures. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LU5...7yejtjhBWN3FX4

[perseverantone]

Go to Backmarket.com I Just bought a Refurbished S10Plus for 156 bucks with 2 years drop/fix/water damage warranty for my X2 so I don't destroy my Good phone, & I purchased Wild Man EX Phone Bag behind handle bars to hold phone my X2 is in route when I get it set up I will let ya know how it works. also the Wildman Bag, Has shading for the screen glare.

[carlb4u]

It worked !!
Thank you so much rtp!!
should have just asked for help in first place :)
3 phones and 100 trys later!!

[rtp]

A few new Qs:
1. What is the relationship between the app profiles vs selected # of PAS levels and current PAS mode selected?
2. Torque linearity in the doc mentions throttle specifically? Does it have any impact on PAS? Are there any provisions to adjust the ramp e.g. torque applied vs power added?
3. Cand the throttle signal range be set? (I’m assuming probably in full vesc tool?) The OE thumb throttles eat bar space and will be looking at alternatives, some of which may have different min/max signals..

[rtp]

It worked !!
Thank you so much rtp!!
should have just asked for herlp in first place :)
3 phones and 100 trys later!!

All good, went through same on my 2021 phone and Marcus literally just got the beta build today. There’s a few others on FB with similar issues, so - progress. :)
We’re you able to see and pair with the controller?

[carlb4u]

just read the v2 owners manual:
"Poor BLE range Bluetooth antenna damaged or disconnected Contact Luna"
Will contact Luna does not appear to be damaged probably just disconnected hopefully easy fix

[paxtana]

visible now

[rtp]

paxtana thx. I recreated with pic so now there are 2 nearly identical. I’d keep the one with the attached antenna pic but I’m becoming afraid to post/edit as the forum has now flagged me twice… ?? Can delete the one without a pic if you’d like, just wanted it to seen in case someone else hits same issue they can at least do another step or two before calling support….- nm, I deleted the dupe.

[LarryMagoo]

It would. be cool to have an actual twist throttle that could be part of the grip like an MC!

[rtp]

RE: unable to pair. Tried to post a response but was flagged as spam (@paxtana ??) - so trying once more. Before contacting Luna, it's probably worth at least one more step IMO.
I'm not the expert here, just relaying what I've seen and in some exchanges with marcos . I have to literally put my pone on the pedal next to the motor/controller to see the controller at all over BT. NOTE: Power must be on to the bike's display! It will then let me connect (BT/device entry is VESC-something) and read data but - I can't move the phone more than 12 inches, let alone to the handlebars or it will disconnect.
Marcos said normal range should be ~6-8 feet.

There is a small antenna connected to the controller externally but it sits outside the motor - check if that is there (see pic).
It's possible its' there but may have become unplugged. Confirm it's there, and set your pedal right next to the controller, turn power on bike, press Scan in the app, and see if can see and connect at all at super-close range. If you can - just move the phone to the bars and see if it stays connected. If so, you may be fine. If not, the antenna may be disconnected inside the controller - at which point I'd contact Luna with all this info to see how to proceed.

I haven't been able to poke at mine much yet as have been slammed at work, and with tomorrow being nearly 70*, am going to give the bike a shakedown run and try to do 10-20 miles with my wife (bike will run fine w/out the mobile app, just not programmable or able to log data) and then dig back into over the weeken.

[carlb4u]

quick update
took x2 for first serious ride and very happy with this bike !!
Blue tooth stay connected ,Im a lefty so usually have phone holder on left side,moved to right side (antenna side)and stayed connected whole time(2+ hours)
Have a feeling its just cheap $60 android phone and not the controller bluetooth signal,next step android upgrade will keep you posted

[rtp]

Pls do. I have a second phone coming but they’re both 2021 models and everyone uses headsets so…. will cross fingers and see, but glad yours is solid!