Tannus Tire liners.

[Retrorockit]

I ordered a couple of these for my bike. Kind of like pool noodles made for bike tires. 15mm thick which with Scwalbe Big Ben Plus e bike tires=20mm flat protection..
They claim smoother ride, better grip, and some run flat capability. I didn't watch any Youtube , I just dived right in like an average bicycle enthusiast As usual learned a couple things the hard way.
First lesson . These things have a cut to size feature. Mine were 26x2.5 to 26x2 tire size liners. My tires were 2.15 which is right at the limit to trim the liner or not.
Fist lesson learned- in that situation trim the liner. Installing these is like trying to mount a tire with a partially inflated tube inside it. The smaller the liner the less trouble.
2nd lesson learned- It's very hard to get the last tire bead to stay down in the drop section of the rim to get the last bit over the edge of the rim. My Sun DH rims are known to be hard to mount anyway. This made it almost impossible.
Stop and start over again after trimming the liners. Also grabbed a bag of zip ties.
1- Mount the first tire bead,. I didn't do this, but it would probably be worth while to fully mount the tire and install the liner with just one bead loose. This might give a more realistic idea of what a roadside repair would be like.
2-Stuff the liner in the tire, then the smaller inner tube provided.
3- Push the liner into the rim as much as you can.
4- Start mounting the last tire bead. Push it down into the drop section of the rim and tie it down with zip ties every few inched so the liner can't push it back out. This allows the last bit of the tire to be mounted without it coming out some where else. Rims with a deeper center may not require this.
I think the run flat feature will be very useful if you have a flat, because fixing it by the side of the road would be just about impossible. I think I'm going to put some Stan's No Tubes in there also.

FWIW I haven't had a flat since trying AZ Guys Stan's No Tubes in my inner tubes. But I also saw no sign of it having stopped a leak anywhere either.........

I'm going to run this in my rear tire first to see about the ride and handling claims. The HT could use some help in the ride dept. at high speeds, and the handling bar is set pretty high already with Schwalbes 50kph Moped rated rubber compound tires.

[ncmired]

Thanks much retro - I've been pondering the Tannus Armour product for quite some time, and wondered about the install / repair issues (although hopefully the flat repair percentages are teensie-weensie). It's taken me years just to work up to the idea of snotted tubes! The Tannus claim of being able to ride (at a very low speed) on a flat is intriguing, but my thought that the tire would run hotter than usual is not.

You wrote, "trim the liner" - do you trim off some of the height of the Armour side walls, all of the way around? The circumference doesn't change, correct?

[Retrorockit]

They claim 10kph-6mph for flat running.I went ahead and put Stan's in the tube so I don't feel like a silly ass if get a pinhole flat with this setup.
Yes there is a line to cut the flap on each side. You can just push a decent pair of scissors along the line. It's actually not much truoble.

[Retrorockit]

I got a first ride in. I did wash the mold release compound off of the new tire before putting the wheel back on. No slippery feeling noticed. On a fast section of concrete slabs It did seem to ride smoother over the expansion joints, but the small whoops over the misaligned ones still tossed the bike around. There's only so much you can expect from a hardtail. With a Thudbuster LT the bike gets tossed but I don't.
I think I figured out why my Schwalbe tires didn't match up with the liners by the numbers. The break off for cutting the liners was 54mm, and I had 55mm tires. BUT the Schwalbe E bike tires all have flat prevention layers inside of the tire, so it's more like a 50mm tire on the inside. So they were still a tight fit. Just a hidden variable to be aware of. I might able to get away with cheaper tires, but I would be giving up the high speed moped rubber compound that really seems to do something for a fast bike.
This sizing issue may crop up om knobby tires also. A 26x2.0 knobby may have a 26x1.75 internal casing size. The listed 26x2"-2.5" size may not work as well as the 26x 1.5-1.9 liner cut to 1.75". Tannus is sponsoring some offroad,DH, and BMX riders. Maybe talk to them about this before buying.

[Retrorockit]

I have another Tannus for the front. I'm going to try it out by the numbers on a Maxxis Hookworm 26x2.5 tire with no flat protection layers, on a Sun Rhynolite rim. it should go together with no trimming required. Since the tire is already mounted it will be a 1 bead insertion. I'll have to take it back out and trim it for my E bike. But this will be a more normal installation. Maybe no zip ties needed?

[Retrorockit]

OK it's done. the Rhynolites are a bear to work with. removing one side of the Hookworm was a chore. I still needed the zip ties to get it back together. It's the only way I've found to consolidate your gains. I did do one thing different. I started the inner tube stem and installing the liner at the same time. The only way I could keep the liner out of the stem hole. Then installed the tube and liner together the rest of the way around. Getting the wide tire to stay down in the center of the rim required the zip ties. But the size of the liner was just right for the 2.5" tire. I think the Maxxis tires are tighter than the Schwalbes. Just the tire itself seemed to fight me more on this one.
i can't say anything bad about how they ride. i'm sure the extra weight in the tires costs some performance, but the BBSHD has the headroom to handle it with ease.
There's a learning curve with these, and a lot of moving parts to get it all together. But if you can do it one time at home, and never again on the road at night in the rain, it's probably worth the trouble.

[Retrorockit]

It's done except for the part of breaking this down, trimming the liner and doing it again on the E bike...............

[AZguy]

....Stan's No Tubes in my inner tubes. But I also saw no sign of it having stopped a leak anywhere either.........

If all is well you won't see any signs beyond possibly a thorn that's lodged itself in the tire... I've never seen residue... I've seen multiple thorns in every square inch though LOL

And remember, no matter how tempting do not pick the scab (pull the thorn out)!!!

[Retrorockit]

I put the Stan's in even with the liners. So what do you think about the Tannus project?. They make them in Fatdike sizes.

[AZguy]

I just don't know enough about them but will say that since I have no issues with flats and it's hard to see me complicating things, I'm pretty lazy like that

When I was riding my MTB's I'd run liners which helps, but is a far cry from eliminating, flats, at least out here in the land of thorns and pointy things. I just carried spare tubes and got good at replacing them in very short order. Most of the time with the liners I could finish a ride without having to change the tube anyway, they'd just slow leak and go flat after the ride.

When I got my first electric bike which was a rear hub drive that made trailside flat repair on the rear wheel pretty much impractical and a flat meant walking/parking/locking the bike, hitching a ride to get the truck and hauling the bike home... one of the many reasons I really don't like hub bikes...

And then maybe 500mi in after dealing with several flats at my house and one time having to retrieve the bike following a flat, I received the word of stans, threw away the PIA liners, don't bother with the spare tubes and patches (seldom ever carry them), and ~10,000mi later don't give all the other stuff a single thought

[Retrorockit]

I'm new to the Stan's method. Still carrying all the other stuff with me.But so far my experience matches what you're saying.
But I'm starting to get a few extra E bikes, and some might get sold or loaned out. One is an IGH already.The smoother ride is worth something to me on a street hardtail. I knew nothing about these, and decided to do something about that.The run flat option might keep a bike form getting "abandoned' in a risky area. I've invested the time and money to install one on the rear of my E bike. I don't really see Stan's plugging a 1/4" cut in a tire.I could see the 15mm liner absorbing something like that easily. And the Stan's + liner doesn't seem to have a downside other than weight once installed.
Locks and chains don't really deter the professional E bike thieves we have around here. One guy lost 3 bikes in 2 weeks. One of them was on camera. 48 seconds to defeat the lock.

[Retrorockit]

So here's where i'm at on this mod.
The claims for ride and handling seem legit.
There is a slight hit on acceleration due to weight. Not a deal breaker with a BBSHD. The shift sensor is much worse.
Offroaders may be able to run lower PSI without pinch flats. I haven't tested this myself. They say 15PSI minimum for fat bikes.
With some tires the sizing chart may not be accurate.
Can be a chore to install.
On a hubmotor or IGH E bike I would just do this mod. You might avoid ever having to pull the rear wheel by the roadside. Run flat would be an option.
Based on my own experience with flats they seem to happen always on the rear for me. Tire wear all happens there also. So to avoid a bigger acceleration penalty I'm going to do this on the rear only. I'll rely on Stan's in the tube for the front tire. if you're experiencing front flats then it might be worth doing both wheels. With a center stand I can pop the front wheel and stick in a new tube fairly easily. A lot less work than dealing with the liner there.
On a bike where the user doesn't have the skill to fix their own tire this might be a good solution.

[Fred]

Can Stan's be used in tubes or just tubeless tires? And does anyone know how effective it is in tubes?

[ncmired]

Can Stan's be used in tubes or just tubeless tires? And does anyone know how effective it is in tubes?

Yes, both Stan's and Slime can be used in tubes. How effective - very effective for those riding in thorny areas. Obviously it won't stop the punctures, it just stops or greatly slows down the air leaks. And it won't help in the case of a substantial tire casing rip.

[Retrorockit]

Slime has ruined a few tubes for me. Stan's seems much better.
Broken glass is the main issue where I ride. I clean it up during daylight, but when coming home at night I could encounter it at any time.The lightly loaded front tire and suspension fork seem to roll over it. But the heavy rear end and hard tail frame really seem to drive it into the tire.A large cut is possible at any time. The other annoying source of flats/ slow leaks is small steel wires from blown tires. The sealer should eliminate these completely. I've had them buried in the flat protetcion layer where you can't find them, but when riding they get pushed back out to cause a new hole.With the sealer you wouldn't even notice them. Stan's in the tubes would be Plan A. The Tannus Armour is a level beyond that.I've pulled some body hardware form wrecks out of my tires. Where I ride I think it's worth it. But I might not be typical.

[AZguy]

Yeah glass would be a different thing, big enough slice isn't likely to get sealed... it'll be interesting to hear your results - maybe you should run the tannus without stans in something to see how they work on their own and outside a large slice likely won't get tested well with the stans in the tube

[Retrorockit]

With a Tannus in there I don't want to ever have to break down a tire by the road. I'll hedge my bets with Stan's. Worst case scenario would be a run flat experience.

[AZguy]

Can Stan's be used in tubes or just tubeless tires? And does anyone know how effective it is in tubes?

Stan's works great in tubes - they don't advertise so much for tubes as tubeless but right on the bottles they put the instructions for tubes... the tube makes it really clean when changing tires, sort of a stans condom... only downside compared to tubeless is not as light as tubeless and you can run super low air pressure in tubeless without risking pinch flats

It is very effective, close to 10,000miles with no flats in the AZ desert and many people here in the desert run it with similar results - it is standard practice for some of the LBS's that give "flat insurance"... as I've mentioned elsewhere:


There are so many thorns out here it's very difficult to go more than ten miles without picking up something - the goat head's are probably the worst and everywhere... doesn't matter if you keep to streets and sidewalks they will get you... They usually make slow leaks that you'll notice when you want to go ride the next time or if you go into a stop for a while... I often come home and see half a dozen or more stuck to the tires and who many knows how many already got knocked off. The barrel cactus, citrus, bougainvillea, etc. all have very large thorns (~1/10-1/8") that are also very easy to pick up and since they typically break off right at the surface of the tire, not so easy to see and make large leaks...

In the old days I'd run thick tubes and tire liners (slime was pointless) and got good at patching...


After my conversion I was blessed and felt the word of stans and I feel its love and warmth inside me (well inside my tubes) and it's been a true spiritual awakening... no more fussing with patches, liners, thick tubes and most importantly no flats

I have since become a true evangelist proselytizing its word to many friends and acquaintances - I even host services at my business' shop converting others by laying their bikes upon my stand and with my stans syringe anoint them into the fold...


Clearly and as always, YMMV, no warranties implied or expressed

[Retrorockit]

I'm going to explore the ride quality claims of these a little further. I've always run more PSI in the rear than the front based on the higher load. Tannus claims you can run 10psi less with these, that is just about the offset I was using. So with Tannus just in the rear I'll try running 35psi at both ends. This is still within the 30-55psi range of the tires themselves. This is also a known sweet spot for a smooth feeling ride frequency. Kind of getting into the baloon tire cruiser category here.
I suppose cost/ benefit should be discussed at some point. A Tannus liner costs as much as a high end E bike tire. I'm not sure this can really be justified by what is actually there. I guess you will have to decide for yourself how the benefits balance out for your own situation. For a lot of people Stan's in a tube is all they will ever need. But for a hub motor, IGH, HT or mission critical (rental/commuter?) they will have a place in my bag of tricks.

[ncmired]

Hey Retro - I'm trying to wrap my one still working brain cell around running 10psi less with the liner. I'm guessing less tube pressure is most desirable for off-road - i,e, desire for a more compliant tire that fattens to comply with the varying off-road surface.

On pavement, wouldn't 10psi less tube pressure imply a higher rolling resistance, by quite a bit (squishy liner propped up that much less by the tube)? I'm now wondering how much the liner is compressed by the tube, especially at higher pressures reducing the distance (difficult at best to estimate) between the outside of the tire and the tube.

Here's what I'm doing now, and am asking what's your take: on my highest speed (low forties max) bike which is pavement only - snotted tubes with Schwalbe Super Moto 27.5 x 2.4 (not X) tires. Prior to tube snot, what flats I've had on all my bikes are being caused by construction fasteners, such as drywall screws, square pneumatic gun fired trim nails and the like. These fasteners often exceed 1 inch in length, and of course are designed to penetrate quickly. As is expected, all flats have been rear tire. My guess is that no pneumatic tire and added liner would stand up to these kinds of projectiles if the attack angle is right - seems like pot-luck.

I'm wondering if where the tire liners really shine is with the short thorns, curly-cue metal shavings, and glass shards. Especially anything that ruptures the tire casing to a point where a tube could be exposed or push its way out - i.e. your screwed unless you have a tube patch kit and can patch the inside of the tire.

I've got no sag-wagon backup, so as I've written before I try to carry everything for the inevitable. Even with the IGH hubs (and Shimano's clumsy shift cable anchor), thanks to vertical dropouts fixing flats isn't terrible (given some shade and better, a place to sit down).

Speaking of sag wagon like services, some state AAA services now offer/support/aid bicycle breakdowns. I'll likely sign up for it when it becomes available.

Liners or not - maybe depending on your region's predominant projectile enemy?

If today, I was tasked to build an analog or low power pavement commuter, I think I'd go with the Tannus 700CC x 40mm airless solid tire - barring spoke failure or collapsing the wheel somehow, it would be almost unstoppable.

[Retrorockit]

There is a simple formula for tire contact area, and tire psi. Divide the #load by the tire PSI and you get the contact patch area.
You might go the Schwalbes website and see what they say about rolling resistance and tire pressure. While larger tires do weigh more, and have a larger frontal area, so are slower overall due to that, rolling resistance is minor according to them. The bike "feels" faster because it is vibrating at a higher frequency, but it ain't necessarily so. I suspect that if you stay in the design PSI of the tire this would hold true. Braking is a factor on the street, so not just an offroad thing, although OTB might be the actual limit in most (but not all)situations..
Also if you are going 40mph you have enough power to disregard that factor to a large extent.
I think the liners can deal with any object large enough to defeat Stan's, and Stan's in the tube can catch anything small enough to penetrate the liner. That's what I'm hoping for anyway.
With a 24Ah battery and a bike that goes as fast as I think is wise on a HT, I'm going to do the empirical thing and see what lower PSI has to offer.
I think some bad data exists on PSI vs. rolling resistance based on running tire s against a round drum. Coast down on a flat surface produces a better result.
Like myself you may have formed some opinions and ideas based on pedal bikes. I've given up on wind resistance and ride straight up now. i gave up on slick tires too. Now maybe tire pressure needs a re-thinking also?

[ncmired]

you may have formed some opinions and ideas based on pedal bikes

Hands up, guilty! When I started down the ebike black hole some seven years ago, I'd would have poo-pooed tires anywhere near as wide as I'm using now.

[Retrorockit]

I went from slicks to grooved slicks, and now Schwalbe Big Ben Plus Moped rated tires. The more I ride this thing the more I unlearn.

[ncmired]

I've got those tires on my Marrakesh, along with snotted tubes.

[Retrorockit]

I went for a 30 mile ride today. I've definitely found some plushness with this mod. Some of it from the liner at 45psi, and even more from dropping the tire psi 10 #. The bike is noticeably quieter. Less vibration getting into the frame. I may be riding faster in many places because the bike is more comfortable at higher speeds. TBH I probably could have dropped the PSI 10# years ago, but never thought to try it. Certainly stayed away form the lower tire pressures after installing the BBSHD. The bike does seem to handle better on less than perfect surfaces. if I'm taking a hit on range or speed the BBSHD and 24Ah battery are hiding it well. Certainly less impact than the high winds going on around here today. The center of the tire definitely wore out faster then the sides (probably norma)l, But maybe the lower PSI will spread the wear a little bit? So I'm at 35PSI at both ends with a tire rated for 30-55PSI. It usually drops 5# between inflations. I didn't think there was anything left to find in the 2004 Gary Fisher comfort bike. But I actually found more COMFORT!