Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mid drive cassettte zip tie mod.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Retrorockit
    commented on 's reply
    I've been running the 8SE, and want to try the 11 speed. But the Connex link can fail on derailers under power when cross chained. I rivet the 8SE, but the Connex for the 11s is $25, and the newer Rohloff Revolver 3 rivet tool is $210. So this is pushing me towards Shimano where the rivet is an option, and costs less than with the tool less connector. Whether the pressed in rivet is as good as a peened one I will have to find out the hard way.
    I went to a lot of trouble and expense on a TSDZ2 IGH project to get the single speed chain lined up. Then realized I could avoid all of that by running the thinner cogs with a multispeed chain off line a bit. The 1/8 chains don't flex sideways so that tech doesn't apply to derailers.
    Last edited by Retrorockit; 07-16-2023, 07:39 AM.

  • ncmired
    commented on 's reply
    I use Wipperman->Connex model 108 1/8 chains on the IGH builds and have had great service life and no pull-aparts or failures, even at 3KW. Maybe some of the tech can be migrated to new derailleur chain designs if they haven't been doing it already.

    They run VERY tight when new on, at least, the Lekkie 40T.

    I also use a Wipperman->Connex 7E8 on a Photon build and an 11SE on a BBS02 build.
    Last edited by ncmired; 07-15-2023, 09:21 AM.

  • Retrorockit
    replied
    Tom Petrie at Cantitoe Road (Wippermann Connex chain vendor) took the time to look at my posts here, and objected to my saying I have reservations about using "Connex" links on my overpowered, crosschained Ebike. When I say I don't run "Connex" links I'm referring to all tool less links of that type. I use the name Connex because they are regarded to be the best, so my problem isn't because of low level brands. He didn't understand that the default Ebike here is a 1500W BBSHD. He has forwarded my emails to him regarding this to Wippermann. Maybe a BBSHD rated chain solution will come out of it. They do have 31mph Pedelec bikes in EU. I'm sure Wippermann supplies chains for them..........

    Leave a comment:


  • Retrorockit
    commented on 's reply
    On page 2 there is a photo of my prototype Idler bracket. I ended up making a nicer one by using a wider piece of stock and drilling the mounting holes at an angle to match the seat tube angle for a level bracket.It was strong enough to break my Series A BBSHD during testing.

  • Retrorockit
    commented on 's reply
    On my street bike I have a gripshift,2 leg center stand a Rapid Rise derailer. I can throw ridiculous speeds, silly numbers of up and downshifts at once, and watch what happens to the chain. Wide/Narrow handles side to side misalignments OK, but does nothing for vertical play which can happen under overrun with this setup. Add some bumps and you need some kind of chain control. If the derailer can pull the slack out of the top run of chain in real time you should be good. But I'm so relentlessly Retro that I went with the chain guide modeled after the rear derailer jockey wheel catching the chain in mid air. I tried the toothed idler with a retention peg to keep the chain in the groove and had the chain hanging down between the tire and chain stay the minute they touched. So freewheeling toothed idler with sidewalls won out for me
    Thanks for doing the mod and reporting back that it actually does something useful for you. Some BC riders like it for the reasons you do, but they probably already have chain guides anyway.

  • 73Eldo
    replied
    My street bike is what appears to be an older shorter range XT with no clutch and I have not had any drops on that but that is the street bike so generally much smoother surfaces and a lot less on and off the power. I think what dropped it off road was just the right combo of a big bump and coming off the power at the same time or maybe a combination of several bumps and on and off the power so just increasing the likelihood of the combo of slack and gravity clashing. Gonna have do do some reading on the differences are since there seems to be at least 6 different deore derailleurs not counting the big class differences like XT vs XTR or the range/cages. Maybe I can also find one that will make it so I can remove the rear wheel without first removing the derailleur with my horizontal drop frame. Guess I should start by figuring what I have on that bike now.

    Leave a comment:


  • AZguy
    replied
    Originally posted by 73Eldo View Post
    ....I was also wondering if it would be worth getting a clutch derailleur? What I am running now is a Deore XT that must have been from just before they started with the clutch thing. Quick look a new 10 speed deore with the clutch looks like its around $50 and in stock multiple places so not that bad if it fixes the problem.
    I'm running an 11sp Deore XT with the clutch and don't think I've ever dropped a chain with a narrow-wide ring with or without zip tie. They do a really good job of keeping the chain tensioned.

    Leave a comment:


  • Retrorockit
    commented on 's reply
    Intend, the builders of Magick Cranks, which are the pedal bike version of the zip tie mod state right up front that a chain guide is required for this. They don't say what kind. I tried a bunch of them, and Terra Cycle's toothed idler, on their heavy duty battery bracket is what worked for me.It needs a really solid bracket because the BBSHD will be trying to push it out of the way. On mt crosschained street bike it was mandatory. The clutch derailer with the stiffest spring I've seen is the Sunrace M9. IDK if it plays well with 10s stuff.

  • Retrorockit
    commented on 's reply
    I wouldn't do the front derailer trick for this mod. Any friction there just makes it worse. The same for the grooved block type.The clutch type derailleur should help. This mod can push slack into the top run of the chain if the derailer spring isn't strong enough to pull it back out. Unfortunately if that slack hits a stationary object like a front derailer cage it gets much worse. I posted photos of what I ended up doing. But a modern derailleur may be all that's needed..

  • 73Eldo
    replied
    I finally did a zip tie on my off road bike. I really did like it. Partly because I did my street bike last year and was starting to get used to it but I did find it really handy for single track technical. I'm a little rusty from not getting out as often so there were a few times I found myself having to do a climb in the wrong gear so it was great while I was coasting around the corner (not able to pedal because of rocks) and able to downshift so as soon as I got past the rocks I could start to climb.

    It was going pretty great till about 2/3 the way through my 3rd lap and I did have a chain drop. Oddly it didn't break the zip tie. Chain fell between the chain ring and BBS case and at least with my setup of a Lekkie 42 and 10 speed chain there is enough room for the chain to just drag over the case. Took some paint off but really didn't drag much. Up till I did this mod I don't ever recall having a drop on this bike except in the snow which was likely a snow and or ice issue.

    On my street bike I have probably 1000 miles on now since I put the zip tie on with no issues or drops at all. On the offroad bike I do really want to keep the feature but I am now concerned about drops. It was getting real hot out and I'm way out of practice so I was just on the green trails and not really pushing that hard. This makes me think if I was to push hard or hit the blues the drops could be a real problem. I think I do have a front derailleur in my junk box for this bike. I don't think it would really hurt anything to try putting that back on. I was also wondering if it would be worth getting a clutch derailleur? What I am running now is a Deore XT that must have been from just before they started with the clutch thing. Quick look a new 10 speed deore with the clutch looks like its around $50 and in stock multiple places so not that bad if it fixes the problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • Retrorockit
    commented on 's reply
    In urban traffic I don't like to have to ask twice for what I need.

  • AZguy
    commented on 's reply
    Haha, if that were the case a grip shift would be better since they can be mounted on either side more readily than trigger!! ;-}

    And a right side trigger is fully compatibility with twist throttle


    I just prefer triggers - had one bike with grip shift (early 90's) and even after a few years of riding it they just didn't gel with me...

  • Retrorockit
    commented on 's reply
    But I run Rapid Rise low normal deralleurs. they would all be upshifts for me.
    Tell the truth now. You actually run trigger shifters because you have a RH twist throttle so you can play make believe motorcycle.

  • AZguy
    commented on 's reply
    FWIW there are plenty of indexed trigger shifters that do multiple gears in one push (mine does four) and not a big deal to push twice (for eight)

  • Retrorockit
    replied
    Here are my recommendations if you want to try this mod.
    1- Have a well lubed front freewheel in your Mid drive. This usually means very light grease or oil on the pawls, not heavy grease.
    2- A gripshift installed. The whole point of this is to be able to shift to any gear any time. The myth that Ebikes can only shift one gear at a time is nonsense. SRAM made gripshifts for both their own "1:1" system, and Shimano's "2:1" Rumor has it that SRAM 11 speed NX (1:1.2) works with Shimano XT (1:1.1) 11 speed stuff.
    3- Good chain management with no friction added to the system. Good chainline with Wide/Narrow chain ring and a modern clutch derailer will probably work. Bit I don't have any of those things and I made it work anyway.
    4- A 2 leg center stand is nice to have. You can spin up the rear wheel with the motor and test shift up and down. This allows you to see how your chain management is working (or not). It also allows you to show off how the bikes shifts. Just be sure the back wheel doesn't touch the ground while twisting the gripshift backwards.
    5- Start with a single small zip tie. It's all that's needed for this to work, and if you get to the point where it no longer breaks then go to the friction drive setup.
    6- An extra link in the chain to allow for some slack to come and go in the top run of chain is helpful, but maybe not needed with the friction drive setup.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X