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Trek Navigator 400 IGH TSDZ2 project.

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    Trek Navigator 400 IGH TSDZ2 project.

    I've started another bike project. 2003 Trek Navigator 400 14.5" frame comfort bike. Nexus 7 speed IGH hub. 36h rims. 185mm BB7 front disc brake and Shimano roller brake in the rear with big heatsink.
    https://www.ebay.com/i/273469737021?...r=572857211604
    The RST fork was replaced with the 2 stage coil/oil.elastomer Rockshox Europa 60mm street fork. Judy XC internals. 26x2 Scwalbe Big Apple tires, Thudbuster LT seat post. Azonic DW bars.
    I'm installing a TSDZ2 48V 750W motor. No hthrottle, and no brake switch. Just PAS torque sensing. This will be for guests and visitors. I want it as simple to operate as possible.
    The 73mm Trek BB pushed the motor out some, and the Nexus IGH chainline will be fussy. I had my LBS take the BB shell facing tool and cut the BB shell down until the motor touches the chainstay. I'm only cutting the RH side to get what I need. I don't have it back yet. but this is a start.
    Last edited by Retrorockit; 02-18-2019, 04:44 PM.

    #2
    I want to replace the narrow Trek rims this came with and install some bigger tires. I could just do the Schwalbe Big Apple Plus. But pedal overlap is an issue with the small frame and bigger tires won't help.
    I'm looking at 24" Rhynolite XL rims. Tougher and wider. The tire choices really get limited though. 24x2.5 Maxxis Hookworms would give it some serious street cred. Schwalbe doesn't have anything like it in that size.. Flat protetcion and reflective sidewalls would do it for me. Does anyone have any other suggestions for a 24x2.5" street tire. Maybe urban assault isn't a thing in Europe?
    I also have a Marzocchi Bomber fork for this. I had it on before but the 85mm travel was too much for this frame. If I can get it pulled down to 65mm it would be nice too.

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      #3
      I got the bike back from the shop. The 73mm BB shell was cut back on the drive side until the motor touches the frame. This gets me to square one relative to a 68mm BB frame. Apparently cutting the BB shell a few mm with a BB facing tool is quite a chore. We're still on speaking terms though. Next I took the plastic covers off and spaced the OEM 42T chainring in as far as it would go using the chainguard and some washers. Judging by where the OEM chainring hits the drive pinion, 42t isn't going to be moved in much further than 1.5mm on these. I want 44T anyway. I'm going to make a thin sheetmetal small cover for the wiring area. I can gain about 2mm there. Not so much for the chainring as for the chain plates hanging inside of it that run through there. I don't see any real advantage to a 130mm adapter unless you own some chainrings. It's still going to hit in the same places. The plastic 2ndary drive cover might be very thick on the sides due to the O ring groove they use to seal that area. I'll see about that after I put the metal wiring cover on. The OEM chainguard is 2mm thin, and probably too flimsy to use asa support for an offset chainring. I'll probably need to order something heavier for that purpose.

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        #4
        I went shopping for parts. I ordered a couple 44t steel cruiser chainrings for 1/8" chain. They have an offset built into them near the outer edge.
        https://planetcyclery.com/catalog/product/view/id/19077
        I also came across an exhaust coupler with a 6" ID that should be just big enough to clear the pinion cover on the TSDZ2 ( maybe with a little trimming) if I need an extender tube.
        https://www.google.com/search?q=CP-6...oHDPHtgMEenmM:
        I'm thinking the offset on the 44t and the offset on the OEM 42T might be all I need If I attach them to each other.
        I think 44T is going to be the magic number for this bike. Any bigger and the frame gets in the way. Any smaller and I can't move in past the pinion cover.
        The smallest Nexus rear cog is a 16T (which is on the bike now) gets me 30mph@90 rpm, 18t and 20T would also be useable.
        Also picked up some 28ga. sheet metal for a thinner wirng cover, and some aluminum plate to make a scissors type battery mount so the batt. will swing out to the side a couple inches for removal from the Shark Bracket.
        Last edited by Retrorockit; 02-20-2019, 06:27 AM.

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          #5
          I'm making some progress on this. I got my offset chainring back from the machine shop/welders. I took the TS offset 42T and had the teeth cut off to 6.25" dia., and had the center cut out of the offset 44T cruiser chainring to 6" ID. A small step was cut to index them and they were welded together stacked inward. I made my thin wiring cover and bolted it all together on the frame that had the BB shell cut back until the TSDZ2 toudhed the chainstay..
          One of the metal ears for the drive cover was touching the chain stay so I trimmed it a little on the back side, so you need to watch for that on these. I beveled the corner of the plastc drive cover, and the inner edge of the new chainring. This was totally expected since they were the same dimension. Stuck an old single speed chain in there and the result was 1- the chain plates just skimmed the thin metal wiring cover, 2- the 44t Chain ring was .010" off of the chain stay. Then I measured the chainline and came up with 45.5mm. I need 47mm for the Nexus IGH hub. so a 1.5mm shim will get me what I need and a little clearance for the chain plates and chainstay.
          Many people report using washers, or round nylon spacers to do this. But I noticed an O ring on the face of the drive flange. That and the seal on the crank shaft keeps water and mud out of the sprag and bearing area. So I made a couple plastic shim rings out of old CD blanks to keep that area sealed up.I will use a gasket sealer for final assembly there. The Navigator series is a consumer grade product and the welds on the soft aluminum frame are huge. They interfere with the aluminum bracket that goes if front of the kickstand plate. A lot of fitting with a Dremel tool will be required there.
          I'm very happy to get a 44T ring in there. The original gearing was 38Tx20, and it was geared pretty short to start with. 44X16 IGH gets me a 30MPH top speed at the 90rpm limt the TSDZ2 comes with. So it will be able to keep up with my BBSHD bike. Any smaller and I couldn't get the offset, any bigger and the chainline would suffer. The shifter on the Nexus hubs sits inside the frame amd keeps you from running smaller that 16T rear cogs. If i find I don't need the "overdrive" top gear 18t and 20T rear cogs will be an inexpensive option to get a lower 1st gear if needed.
          The next challenge is getting the Shark battery mounted. It fits IN the frame, getting it OUT is a different matter. I'll need to make a knife hinged mounting plate to swing it sideways so it can be removed from it's connector.
          Last edited by Retrorockit; 03-03-2019, 06:39 AM.

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            #6

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              #7
              I'm having a hard time getting text and photos to load together. The photos may not be loaded yet.
              The 1st photo is the offset ring installed with the thin metal wiring cover. No shims or bolt installed.
              The 2nd photo is the outside of the welded chainring with the plastic shims that I ended up not using.
              The 3rd photo is the back side of the chainring with the rings where they would actually go. I just don't have the proper tools here at home to make the rings in metal.
              I just stuffed a bigger O ring in the gap created to keep it sealed up.

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                #8
                Ordered some more parts. Wippermann 1E8 single speed E bike chain. BV 2 legged kickstand which folds both legs left, and some different Nexus IGH anti rotation washers to adjust the shifter cable angle.
                I'm going with the high end chain to protect the expensive custom chainring. It's chrome plated steel. I hope the plating was to make the heat treated teeth look nice, but I have no way of knowing for sure. It might be plated to hide the fact that they aren't hardened.
                It's reported that you can use the wrong rotation washers to aim the IGH shift cable up the seat stays if you need to. They come in 4 different angles, and can be swapped side to side for other configurations.
                https://web.archive.org/web/20130925...er%20Chart.pdf

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                  #9
                  I'm not sure, but I think you can also use the Sturmey Archer non-turn washers - just to jumble up even more possibilities. I also came across a forum post where the cable bracket had been bent out approx 20 degrees (for clearance), and it still worked ok.

                  On the pictures, I've been successful dragging the photo into the post, as well as using the upload/link image "button" (in advanced editor mode). I then resize the image width to about 700px (it'll figure out the proper height fortunately).
                  2nd build, 2018 Crust Scapegoat, BBS02 or BBSHD, Rohloff IGH
                  3rd build, 2018 Crust Evasion step-thru, BBS02, Shimano Nexus INTER-3 IGH
                  4th build, 2016 Salsa Marrakesh flatbar frameset, BBSHD, Alfine 8 IGH

                  Visit the forum knowledge base

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                    #10
                    Every time I hit edit the spam filter locked me out until an admin. approved the change.
                    The rotation washer page mentioned a chain case. I may look into that. I hear chains last forever in an oil bath.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Retrorockit View Post
                      Every time I hit edit the spam filter locked me out until an admin. approved the change.
                      The rotation washer page mentioned a chain case. I may look into that. I hear chains last forever in an oil bath.
                      I am one of the moderators. I check in every few hours to see if legitimate posts have been flagged by the spam filter. Sorry for the delays.

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                        #12
                        I've been neglecting the chain maintenenace on my Gary Fisher while busy with this project. It caught up with me last night. I'm thinking the chain case might be worth doing. A port in the top to oil the chain, and a piece of lawnmower air filter foam in the bottom to collect the drippings.

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                          #13
                          I got my Wippermann 1E8 single speed E bike chain installed. All the extra clearance that going from 45.5mm chainline to 47mm to match the Nexus IGH just went away. Boy is that chain thick! Their 8 speed E bike chain is normal sized but better quality. The single speed E bike chain is a beast. It does clear the sheetmetal cover I made by about .010" so no further modding to make it fit. Shimming out at the BB shell would not work here. Cutting in there, and shimming the hub out actually was required to use this hub and this chain with the TSDZ2. If you wnat to be able to run this chain you should get one early on and build around it. I lucked out this time.

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                            #14
                            I switched my first build to 1/8 after three too many pull-aparts of 3/32 chains, and went initially with the KMC Z510HX chain. I have some of the Wippermann 1E8 chains now too, but haven't compared.

                            To be fair, it may be that my chain cutter was damaging the 3/32 chains.

                            I had a mild clearance problem on the Nexus/Alfine 8 when using inward dished sprockets, with the chain binding on the IGH's inner plastic dish. The same will happen with the two Shimano (18 and 20) sprockets with the plastic guards - especially if you use the master link.

                            There's also a mild clearance issue with the BBSHD when using Eclipse two-piece (42T), with the chain buffing the motor case.
                            2nd build, 2018 Crust Scapegoat, BBS02 or BBSHD, Rohloff IGH
                            3rd build, 2018 Crust Evasion step-thru, BBS02, Shimano Nexus INTER-3 IGH
                            4th build, 2016 Salsa Marrakesh flatbar frameset, BBSHD, Alfine 8 IGH

                            Visit the forum knowledge base

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                              #15
                              I'm using the 16t outward gear w/o guard.
                              I played around with cable routing today. On the left side I put a countersunk bolt in the fornt of the steel bracket to allow the cable to bend around the motor there. I only countersunk one hole because it removes a lot of metal creating a pretty thin area there. A button head bolt might be a safer option. I'm not real sure what that bracket actually does My brake cable comes out of the bottom of the downtube there. On the left I had to make a new hole in the top of the downtube for the shiftercable to get past the gear housing. Took it to the LBS for new cables and housings.
                              I don't have a final idea for the battery swing out mounting. Probably put some angle iron on the side fo the downtube with some added water bottle bosses. I don't see any other way to get a 0 thickness bracket.
                              Some of the Eropean chain casea are interesting. One doesn't attach to the bike at all. It just floats around the chain itself.
                              https://www.hebie.de/en/protection/c...ainglider/350/
                              iI would have issues with my Nexus hub, and the customoffset chainring. But if it would float around the chainguard it might have some possibilities.

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