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    #16
    If you regularly have close calls or crashes, you are not driving defensively.

    The number-one thing for avoiding accidents, is defensive driving.

    It's more important than a helmet.

    It's more important than your choices of lighting or bright clothing.

    And defensive driving is definitely way more important than anybody's favorite emergency maneuvers.

    The number one cause of single-person e-bike-crashes is excessive speed. Defensive driving prevents 100% of these crashes.

    The number one cause of multi-vehicle bicycle crashes, involves failure to yield/asserting right-of-way situations. Defensive driving prevents 100% of those crashes too.

    Go on down any list of accident-causes and statistics, you'll find very few that aren't easily prevented by defensive driving.

    Here's a very common example: Cyclist is overtaking a line of stopped vehicles, on their right-hand side--and one of the vehicles turns right in front of their path. If the cyclist didn't anticipate that--they weren't driving defensively. If the cyclist anticipated that, but failed to reduce their speed; weren't prepared to stop--then they weren't driving defensively.

    A defensive driver never concerns himself or herself with who is "right" or "wrong" in traffic--never asserts their "right-of-way".

    But there's a lot more to it than just not riding like a jackass (though if you're new to the concept of defensive-driving, that's still a decent place to begin).

    Driving defensively means identifying and separating hazards, as well as anticipating the [often stupid] behavior of other road users, and adjusting your own speed, road position, etc. accordingly.

    Driving defensively means more than just not causing accidents--it means avoiding all accidents--including all the ones that are going to be the other guy's fault. If you are one of those people who has a lot of close calls, then it's likely the defensive driving of strangers has saved your life more than once.

    Defensive driving requires training. It's not just a "mindset" or "mentality"--it involves specific techniques and skills, which need to be learned. Excellent observation skills, active thinking and decision-making, situational awareness, and predictive abilities are all essential, but they need to be applied situationally, and sharpened with real-world practice.

    I first took driver's ed in high-school back in Portland--and I really only signed up so I could get the insurance discount. But I immediately, I found the training offered me a lot more than I'd expected. That training made me safer when compared with other new, inexperienced drivers. Looking back, I can say that was worth alot more to me than just the insurance-savings.

    In my twenties I took motorcycle rider training courses at Portland Community College. Those courses were excellent--and a lot of the skills obviously translated perfectly to e-biking. There are additional hazards for two-wheeled vehicles, and additional defensive driving and maneuvering techniques as well--great stuff which I still use on every bike-ride today.

    In my thirties I continued learning and applying what I'd learned as I developed driver-training and certification--as my squadron's NCOIC Vehicle Control.

    And when I moved to The Netherlands, I took still more driver-training--to get my EU Driver's License.

    Reductions in accident/incident-rates show there's real value in driver training. For this reason, defensive-driving classes are often offered at low costs--and sometimes, in the interest of public safety, they're even offered for free.

    The safety-improvement for the attendee is naturally the biggest take-away, but some insurance carriers do still offer discounts to policy holders who've attended a defensive-driving course.

    If you or someone you know has a lot of close calls or crashes--I seriously suggest taking one.

    Be safe!

    tklop
    Last edited by tklop; 1 week ago.

    Comment


    • tklop
      tklop commented
      Editing a comment
      And if you're one of those "lots of close calls" people--but you're just sure that the problem ain't you... Remember: 85% of people poled, rated themselves as "Above Average" drivers. If you're not too scared to crawl out from behind your curtain of pride, well... Just stop think about that for a minute.

      Learn--and keep riding--and sooner or later you'll save somebody else from getting into an accident. Improve your skills--and it won't just be your own life you're saving.
      Last edited by tklop; 1 week ago.

    #17
    Defensive driving won't prevent some asshole from throwing his truck into reverse and doing a burnout down the street where you're riding.I did see the backup lights and the BBSHD saved me. Defensive driving won't keep some jerk in a pickup from pulling up nest to you and running you out of that lane, and the turn lane next to it. Hitting the brakes and pulling in behind him didn't work because he was also pulling a trailer. He ran out of road when the turn lane ended and jacknifed because he was going too fast to make the corner with the trailer. Defensive driving won't prevent you getting hit sitting at a stop sign because a parked driver checked their mirror but didn't look forward before pulling out ( I was in an Electric Blue PT Cruiser for that one). I consider myself to be a defnesive driver and have a no accident CDL for 30 years.
    But defensive driving has saved me many many other times. So I am a believer. But don't let it lull you into a false sense fo security.
    Last edited by Retrorockit; 1 week ago.

    Comment


    • tklop
      tklop commented
      Editing a comment
      I totally agree--and you're correct.

      Defensive driving won't prevent others from acting stupid or insane.

      Defensive driving isn't about "them" it's about us. It has nothing whatsoever to do with affecting the behavior of other drivers--only our own.

      Some measure of defensive driving saved you from the stupidity of the other drivers in some of the situations you described--obviously--or you'd probably not be here to write about them. If you weren't anticipating how that stupidity was playing out, you might not have BBSHD'd yourself out of the way in time (yes--I used that as a verb).

      Take one of those free defensive driving courses--and ask your instructor to take some time with you, and draw up diagrams of each of those incidents--and break them all down in detail. If you're the strong-ego type, you might not like it very much at first--but with analysis you'll discover the various ways each and every one was preventable or avoidable; and you'll realize that there were many more options, and many more warning-signs--that there was actually a whole lot more to the scene than you'd realized at the time. Looking back on incidents honestly, we always find that's true--no matter how careful we might have thought we were being at the time. That's why there's that annoying saying, "Hindsight is always 20/20". As a trainer I never worked off pre-written accident-scenarios--just ones from the trainees in my class. Our own experiences are the best to check out--after all, we were there! Looking at incidents in our past, and diagramming them, helps us learn to exercise the kinds of situational awareness we need. It takes practice and repetition before we're able to do that effectively "real-time" in traffic. Again--it's not a mindset--it's a skillset.

      I also agree--any fool who derives confidence from their so-called "driving skills"--is obviously not driving defensively.

      Defensive driving does not provide any false sense of security whatsoever.

      In fact, if you're feeling safe, secure and confident behind the steering wheel or your handlebars--that's a very clear indication you're not driving defensively.

      What defensive driver training does provide, is measurable results: Fewer incidents, fewer accidents.

      I'd describe that as "real competence" as opposed to "false confidence".
      Last edited by tklop; 1 week ago.

    #18
    I had one where a driver passed me speeding inthe rain. He stopped 1/2 way through an intersection, and when he backed up I noticed his backup lights didn't work. I assumed he was still in reverse and stopped about 40' behind him. When the light changed he floored it in revesrse, as anticipated, and I was in the clear because I've learned to expect the worst around here..

    Comment


    • Retrorockit
      Retrorockit commented
      Editing a comment
      Really the only issue I have with tklop's position is his statemant that it's 100% effective.
      Nothing is foolproof against a great enough fool.
      If he had backed into me there wouls have been no way for me to prove that I didn't run into him from behind. There is an assumption of guilt written into the law here that the person who is in the rear car is at fault.
      Last edited by Retrorockit; 1 week ago.

    • tklop
      tklop commented
      Editing a comment
      It is 100% effective at solving accidents caused by a lack of defensive driving--as in the examples I used. Going too fast? 100% Preventable. Failure to yield/asserting your "Right of Way"? 100% Preventable.

      I'm sorry if you misread. I never said defensive driving can prevent all accidents. But I can see how you'd get that--when I did say that all accidents are preventable--because they are. It's an obvious fact that humans still make mistakes--even those who've had defensive-driving training. So we still sometimes have incidents and accidents. Sometimes in the moment--we just don't always see that option--what might've made it "preventable". It's not until we go back and analyze, diagram, and review--where we can understand what we might've done differently. But that's the whole point--that's what makes reviewing our own incidents such valuable learning opportunities. If we all were perfect, and never had incidents or accidents--then we'd have nothing to learn from.

      What I said (over and over) is that the incidents and accidents are measurably less frequent for those with defensive-driver training. That is a fact which applies to all drivers, of all ages and experience levels. Significant and measurable reduction in incidents and accidents for all attendees.

      As such, it is the number one most important safety measure available to vehicle operators--not matter what you drive or ride.

      And if you learn the techniques, and develop and practice the skills, you'll see: Sooner or later, your awareness, and the defensive driving skills you've learned and practiced--will come into play in the real-world, and your actions will prevent another driver (or drivers) from getting into an accident. To me, I'd say that's probably the greatest reward--when something ugly just doesn't happen. It's not only yourself you're saving--proactively practicing the skills of defensive-driving also makes the roads safer for those around you.

      Defensive driving is the most effective thing we've got for safety. But it doesn't work, if you're not practicing it. Defensive driving takes an elevated level of concentration--and that generally results in a reduction of driving stamina (once exceeded, our drivers' defensive-driving skills begin to wane--as tested in simulators). It's not an easy skill set to sustain, hour after hour, day after day. Complacency sets in sometimes. Something as minor-seeming as driving while tired--can significantly reduce a driver's ability to drive defensively.

      Truth is, most of us--probably all of us if we're honest with ourselves about it--have moments where we drive poorly. Maybe it's because we're tired, maybe we had just one too many beers, maybe we're just in a lousy mood, and we're acting like fools or jackasses. Even the best, most courteous drivers have bad moments. But if an incident or accident happens in one of those moments--we normally excellent drivers scramble to find fault elsewhere--to hide from our embarrassment; deflect. I've been there. I've felt the urge to do that. It was embarrassing--I could hardly believe it had happened. At first, I just wanted to disappear. But I'm not a child. I'm strong enough and tough enough to step out of all that silly hurt pride and embarrassment. I can boldly look at an incident objectively--take the time to analyze and diagram, extract the lessons from the incident, learn and to move on. But if I'd cowardly stuck to my false narrative, my ego-preserving, blame-shifted, self-absolving false version of the incident, trying to keep the embarrassing truth about my moment-of-stupidity buried deep away--I'd have never gotten the chance to learn from it. That'd have been a shame.

      I'm not proud of behaving badly sometimes--but I'm also not too proud to admit it happens sometimes. I'm a human being, and I have my moods--and I know that from time to time I fail to "drive nice". That truthful admission lowers my embarrassment about screwing up once in a while--allowing me to learn my lessons... But more than just that, it also offers me a valuable window into understanding other road users.

      It allows me to see others differently: Maybe everybody once in a while has their own jackass moments--or maybe even a whole jackass day behind the wheel. It's a fair assumption other drivers have those times--just like me, and if I remember that, it gives me a fairer outlook: I'm affording the exact same kind of understanding and courtesy I'm demanding of other road-users--whenever I'm out there having one of my own jackass days--and expecting others to get out of my way... Right?

      Bottom line is, we gotta share the roads with all kinds of other road-users. We'd love it if they were all good drivers having good driving days--every day. But we've also got good drivers having jackass days, bad drivers having good days, and bad drivers having extra-bad jackass days. We've got the young, we've got the elderly, speed-demons and sunday-drivers; we've got the distracted--gamers, texters and talkers--we've got the pill-poppers, the dope-fiends, the drunks and the high, we've got plenty of stupid and even some either temporarily or permanently insane. All these--and many others--and various combinations of them all, and everything in-between. Simply being frustrated about having to share the road with all of them isn't helpful.

      Learning and applying defensive-driving skills, helps us cope--by learning to spot "hazard people" at a greater distance, and to anticipate their unpredictable behavior.
      Last edited by tklop; 1 week ago.

    #19
    On the moto I ride invisible... I am a ghost and it's entirely up to me to stay out of trouble and my motos have very high power-to-weight ratio making it a practical form of risk management.. We subscribed to the motto "when in doubt - gas it out!"... often followed by the more tongue-in-cheek "it may not solve the problem but it will end the suspense" Click image for larger version

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    On a electric bicycle where power is 1hp or so that doesn't work at all so the motto for electric bicycles is "AZguy don't do streets"

    Comment


    • tklop
      tklop commented
      Editing a comment
      Just wanted to point out. "gas it out" sometimes applies--even if you've got low power-to-weight ratio. Depending upon the situation, it's still effective a lot of the time. Now--I know--that "When in doubt" thing is just a catch-phrase, just of a rhyming mechanism. So I'm only teasing when I point this out--but "When in doubt?"--Seriously? I mean--if you've got "doubts"--instead of "outs"--then I doubt you're driving defensively! ;-)

      I've never had much power-to-weight ratio--but depending upon the situation, it has been plenty. Sitting at a red light, no cross-traffic, and some idiot is barreling down on me from behind? I don't need afterburners--I just need to make a normal right turn.

      The earlier I spot any situation developing, the easier it is to make sure I've got an "out".

      I couldn't describe that much better than in Retro's example with the non-lit back-up-lights, and the driver leaving it in reverse. Retro saw it coming early on--the whole thing--and Retro left himself plenty of options. That all started with the extra space he left himself. Before that light even turned green, Retro was prepared--in case that guy hit the gas, and just kept coming. Retro knew he had time (due to that distance) to choose another "out"--by darting up a driveway, or over the sidewalk to get out of the way, whatever. That's a perfect example of anticipating a situation, and taking smart actions in response.

      Sometimes, the best choice is to drive out of the situation--even if you haven't a lot of power. That has saved me even with my wimpy old 48hp 1980 diesel VW golf. It has saved me on my e-bike, and my bakfiets, and many times in my life on leg-powered bikes. I've even driven away to prevent a collision in a slow and heavily-loaded delivery-truck.

      More times than not though, what we need is less speed. Early recognition allows us options: Reductions in speed, increasing of space-cushions, adjustments in lane-position--we get more choices as a rider if we slow down, and that allows us more flexibility as the situation develops. That's no less true on a high-powered motorcycle.

      In road-rage situations I always advise slowing down--at least initially--no matter what you're driving. Sometimes they'll want a faster rabbit to chase--and lose interest in you. Frequently--that's the end of it.

      But if your road-rage incident starts at high-speed, and you try to race away, the road-rager will usually react like a greyhound and try to catch you.

      By increasing your own speed, you're putting yourself at risk, until you're comfortably far enough ahead of him. For the duration of that time, you're probably driving very fast--and that's compromising your safety--as well as the safety of other innocent road-users.

      Assuming you get away--there's still the matter of your pursuer. Because you chose to run--you've escalated the situation instead of deescalating it. Now, sure--that asshole road-rager may be long gone in your dust--but they're still barreling down the highway in their car or truck at extremely unsafe speeds--hoping to catch glimpse of you just around the next bend. If instead, they careen around that bend, and kill a school bus full of kids--well, that won't get pinned on you... But if you didn't at least try for deescalation--and you see the pics in the paper--well, that should keep you up at night.

      Even in a road-rage situation, slowing down first gives us more outs--and if we have a high power-to-weight ratio, slowing down always amplifies that advantage. Make them stop--or nearly stop--and if you're on a powerful motorcycle, you've got both maneuverability and power on your side--it won't be hard to double-back on them--reversing course (I don't care where you were headed--your plans just changed, now that you've got this crazy person trying to murder you with their vehicle).

      While they're still busy scrambling to make their fifteen-point-turn and go after you--you've already "gassed it out" and you're halfway to the next county. Because your pursuer isn't likely to catch you quickly at all, you won't have to keep racing at high-speeds for too long--and you'll be able to relax, and get back down operating at safe speeds again.

      Meanwhile that road-rager knows he is never going to catch you. He won't even bother finishing his turn-around. He'll say to himself, "Good. I done scared him good. Sucker ran away." That sense of satisfaction will calm his psycho self down a little bit. You've given him his adrenaline-fix--but you didn't allow it to escalate. And he'll still be just as much of psychopath--but the odds are much lower he'll immediately drive twice the speed-limit, and put others in danger. Your defensive-driving actions will have diffused the situation. He'll still be an asshole--but he'll be driving slow enough to able to stop for that school bus around the bend.

      Now--obviously that's all pure speculation--and each and every situation needs to obviously be read as it happens.

      But even in the most bizarre situations--lower speed means more options. More options almost always result in better outcomes.

      I learned--and always taught that. The earlier your situational awareness can alert you, the more options you have. I'm not in the training business anymore, but for good, attentive drivers, the greatest enemy to early recognition of hazards (and "hazard-people")--was always excessive speed.

      Speed steals away our reaction-time. We all know that. But the word itself causes misunderstanding. Our "reacting" in an emergency isn't just pressing a button. It's not just simply that 1/2 second human-reaction time. In an emergency, "reacting" means you've got to make a rapid series of smart choices, in quick-fire succession, and you need to execute their associated maneuvers perfectly as well. Speed steals away the time we need to read situations, and it steals away from us the time we need to enact our chosen sequence of actions.
      Last edited by tklop; 1 week ago.

    • AZguy
      AZguy commented
      Editing a comment
      The "when in doubt gas it out" is more one of our many moto racing maxims - like "you can't enter a corner too slow or leave it too fast"... they're somewhat tongue-in-cheek but have roots in a reality

      I've got over a million miles on motos... only one accident involving another vehicle and I was a teenager and while it was his "fault" - I "fault" myself for not avoiding it and learned

      I won't ride bicycles on the street... "AZguy don't do streets"... my two-wheel street history is wrapped around large machines with orders of magnitude more power than a bicycle to the point that even a BBSHD for me is not much different than no power at all

      Regardless, I find power a highly suitable approach to dealing with other vehicles on the roadway when I'm on a machine that is much smaller, far more maneuverable and with so much greater power-to-weight - it shouldn't be a surprise coming from a racing background... a bicycle only has one of those things and it's a disadvantage for the most part... it's not a simple one is the right or wrong approach all the time... And it's not how I drive my little four-cylinder car or my 4x4 truck which are all driven differently and with a different mindset


      Look, a lot of this is philosophical and borders on trying to discuss religion and politics... perhaps we should go back to talking about what's the best way to lube a chain? Are fat-tires better than skinny if all you ride is on the street? Is Mobil28 really the best grease for a BBSHD? Hub vs. Mid?

    • tklop
      tklop commented
      Editing a comment
      AZguy said: "...I find power a highly suitable approach to dealing with other vehicles on the roadway when I'm on a machine that is much smaller, far more maneuverable and with so much greater power-to-weight - it shouldn't be a surprise coming from a racing background... a bicycle only has one of those things and it's a disadvantage for the most part... it's not a simple one is the right or wrong approach all the time... And it's not how I drive my little four-cylinder car or my 4x4 truck which are all driven differently and with a different mindset..."

      Exactly.

      Every vehicle is a new partnership--between us, and our machines. A skateboard isn't a bicycle, an e-bike isn't a vespa, a moped isn't a motorcycle, a passenger car isn't a pickup truck, a van isn't a box-truck, and a fifth-wheel isn't a semi-truck.

      Every individual vehicle in each class also has its own unique characteristics. Plus, every load--light or heavy--also adjusts the equations--along with every change in weather, road-surfaces, traffic-density, speed--all that and more comes into play continuously--dynamically.

      It's no simple right-vs-wrong, or one-size-fits all thing. But that's okay--all healthy partnerships are dynamic--if you really think about it.

      That's certainly true with machines. The different properties of the various machines we operate, and the conditions we're trying to operate them in--both should have a continuous distinct and dynamic affect upon how we operate them.

      We've all met vehicles which hate ice and snow--cars and trucks which battle us continuously, whenever forced to operate under those conditions.

      We learn to respect these personality quirks.

      With experience, we learn our machines really well. Eventually they "fit like a glove". But it's never a single operating-style--it's just the opposite. We only get to enjoy that "extension-of-myself" feeling, because we've learned how to be the ultimate dynamic partner with our machines.

      We know how our motorbike handles on the loose stuff. We know how our hatchback behaves on the ice. We know how our pickup truck behaves with fifteen sacks of concrete in the bed.

      And I know how my 3WD e-bakfiets behaves under pretty-much all conditions so far--except for sheet-ice. And if I ever get the opportunity, in a wide obstacle-free setting, I intend to try to get a feel for that too. I'd love to have an afternoon to go play Zamboni on an empty skating-rink!
      Last edited by tklop; 1 week ago.

    #20
    Good point about power issue with ebikes, AZguy. On a motorcycle I can zoom away, and get to open road. You learn many "rules" riding a motorcycle, such as ...
    Identify the safe zones, and get there.
    Assume everyone around you will do the most absolutely stupid thing possible.
    Dress for the crash, not the ride. Also known as ATGATT - (all the gear all the time)
    Do your best to be seen

    One that is hugely important would be to have a short memory. Riding a motorcycle is a very zen, in the moment activity. You cannot get pissed and live there. React to a threat, get safe, and move on. Staying pissed and ranting in your helmet will result in you doing something stupid like ignoring the second idiot coming at you, or being aggressive at someone wielding a two-ton kinetic weapon.

    I think most motorcycling rules totally apply to cycling on the street.

    I see your point retrorocket, but I also get where tklop is coming from. I agree that defensive driving is our single greatest tool for staying safe on two-wheels, and it really is the only thing we can control. Safety gear is paramount too, but I also believe in personal responsibility and the darwin effect.

    Jose

    Comment


      #21
      Out here I'm actually more concerned about the "rages in cages" (more old moto lingo) and my "closest encounters" haven't been with people that didn't see me, they have been with people that not only saw me but were trying to take me out... got a few stories... seems like every couple of years I'd come across some nitwit that was all pissed off for who knows why... and not that I suggest someone does the same or that it's a good idea but I've come away from some of these where they had a large dent the size of a boot... oh well...

      In the end I always had to laugh at those guys... the cars compared to motos were like airliners trying to take on fighter jets in a mock dogfight... but you really had to be on your game with the high stakes after all....

      I don't play in the streets any more... it's just not fun... I'm too old and and nowadays there are too many guns...

      Bicycles to me, electric or no, are too much sitting ducks... more power to those that commute on the streets... I commute to my shop but it's all multi-use trails...

      Comment


        #22
        I've honestly never been subject to caging rager. Even when living in L.A. and running all over on two wheels, I've generally been able to keep safe.

        The route I will take to my work on my e-bike is almost all bike trail, with about three blocks of city riding. I can say that my wife is definitely more bothered by my being on a bicycle than my motorcycle, so I'm looking for a full face, downhill helmet now. ATGATT people.

        Jose

        Comment


          #23
          I have one congested side street that is the only link to where I need to go that isan't a 45mph 8 lane , and road rage happens there occasionally. But the ability to go the 30mph speed limit helps a lot.
          The other time I had a bad road rage experience (mentioned somehwere above), I was off my chosen route to vist an LBS in another town. I've since found calmer routes to access that area. But road rage happens in cars around here also, and in a 4 wheeler and congested traffic "Gas it out" isn't always an option. It's not just an Ebike, or MC problem.
          Last edited by Retrorockit; 1 week ago.

          Comment


            #24
            Originally posted by DaHose View Post
            I've honestly never been subject to caging rager ...
            I've got a *lot* of time on motos so have had the opportunity

            I think there's something about AZ that brings out the worst in drivers... maybe the heat? People get goofy for reasons I'll never understand.

            There's some things I know that will piss people off like riding up through a a pack of traffic at a red light... which I do! I'm not slowing anyone down since I'm going to pull away more quickly just lightly accelerating from the light but people feel like you are "cutting in line" or whatever. Motos will overheat out here in a hurry sitting still - you do have to keep them moving and who the heck wants to sit and breathe exhaust fumes anyway?

            OTOH out of the blue I've seen people that just go off for ridiculousness... I recall riding and passing a guy on a divided highway two lanes on each side when he starts to change left into my lane while I'm passing him with less than a 5mph speed delta - I don't think he looked first and got surprised to see me there (motos do that even to attentive drivers, I get it) then he just kept looking at me and kept coming over so I "gas it out" and the fool starts to chase me... long story that one - maybe I'll post sometime... guy was on a murderous rampage for what? He was so raged he nearly had a couple of high-speed head-on's trying to kill me... fool... not only could I outperform but it was a big DP bike so I could just ride off in the open desert on the side of the road and his car would have been stuck in the first fifteen feet... Getting startled because he didn't look before changing lanes is enough to set him off with intent to kill where all rational thought is gone? Go figure...

            Regardless, they're out there everywhere... even the most timid moto riders (which admittedly I'm not) will come across them at some point...

            Comment


            • tklop
              tklop commented
              Editing a comment
              Some places--it's hard to say. St. Louis is friendly (so it is said), but that city had some of the scariest rush-hour drivers I've ever seen.

              Not sure about Arizona...

              Maybe it's the heat--or maybe it's the methamphetamines.
              Last edited by tklop; 1 week ago.

            #25
            ...Maybe it's the heat--or maybe it's the methamphetamines.
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            I'll bet it contributes! It's a hard drinking state too and even if the drivers are just hungover it can't help... also plenty of cocaine use... none which has a calming effect... at least the stoners prolly don't rage too much...

            I think there's factors like how spread out things are so that it gives more "freedom" to behave less "socially"... the roads are really fast out here compared to most of the world too - not just the U.S. The main grid of streets through residential with plenty of side street intersections have a speed limit of 45 but that's just a mild suggestion and most folks are going closer to 55... Streets are very wide too.

            Zonies tend to have an f'you attitude towards anything that might limit their perceived "freedom" too - why do you think we've got so much virus going on?

            Comment


              #26
              That sounds like a real party experience AZguy. Maybe the ubiquitous weed supply is why we don't have as many wack-a-doodles here in Cali. Dude .... I GOTTA get a burger! Let me drive there real slow. Whoahhhh........

              Is lane splitting legal in AZ? It is here, so that might help too. I do get some yo-yo's who try to crowd the center and prevent me from going by, but usually the other car moves over to give room. I just give a friendly wave every time someone is courteous and lets me pass, and don't worry about the idiots.

              Been a long time since I was primarily on a bicycle. It feels like a whole new adventure to be honest. I need to get the wheels trued/tensioned while I wait for my street tires. Hold on.... that brings up a good point. Safety equipment for bicycling is more than just the helmet and gloves. It's all the peripherals. I am also waiting on a new 6000 lumen Cree headlight. I bought it because it's not only bright, but it has a flashing mode so I can use it as a DRL.

              Jose

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by DaHose View Post
                ...Is lane splitting legal in AZ?
                Nope not at all and it will royally piss of the LEO's if they see you doing it... we don't have a helmet law either... go figure... AZ!

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                  #28
                  Who needs lane splitting when you can just ride your hog in the bicycle lane? I call it the Hyabusa bypass.
                  You have to watch out for Vespas on the sidewalk if you're anywhere near the Vespa dealer.

                  https://duckduckgo.com/?q=wheels+up+...VNpQ&ia=videos
                  Last edited by Retrorockit; 1 week ago.

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