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E Bike regulations in Queensland Australia

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    E Bike regulations in Queensland Australia

    Hi everyone. I've been thinking about getting an E Bike for a while now and had started looking at bikes available here in Queensland Australia. However once I read what to me, appear draconian regulations, it's pretty much put me off going any further. However, in case I'm misunderstanding the regs, here's what it says;

    The motor on a bike cannot operate without the rider pedaling, except to help with initial take-off, up to 6km/h. “The motor must cut out at 25km/h, with the rider able to pedal like a standard bike above this speed.'

    There needed to be a clear distinction between pedal-operated devices and a throttle-operated moped or a motorcycle, which must be registered for road use.'
    http://statements.qld.gov.au/Stateme...isted-bicycles

    What I was originally interested in was to have E Bikes for myself and my partner so we could travel the (mostly) side roads but occasionally main roads (not motorways obviously) at a decent but not too fast speed. My thoughts being that if we traveled too slow there's a greater chance of having car drivers being impatient with us. We'd have to be able to ride up reasonably sloped hills but nothing too steep. We're in our mid 60's and reasonably fit. I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks!

    #2
    A lot depends on whether any one is likely to actually enforce those rules. Most likely in an urban area with lots of pedestrians around, or broadwalks at the beach.. You might also look into whether they're forcing you to ride in the road, or are sidewalks allowed?
    You might look at the new Lune 500W fixie "looking" bike. 500W PAS stealth bike. A stealth bike, and a riding style that doesn't make what's going on too obvious may allow to to proceed unmolested.
    https://lunacycle.com/luna-fixed-stealth-ebike/
    Hills and headwinds, and extended range are where ebikes really help. This can all be done surrepetisiously. You are absolutely correct that speed mismatch is a major factor not only in having an accident, but the severity of it also. You might talk to local E bikers and see what the climate actually is. It looks like the powers that be consulted a "cycling expert" who had vested interest in pedal bikes.
    Last edited by Retrorockit; 2 weeks ago.

    Comment


      #3
      Thank you so much Retrorockit. I appreciate your advice. I live in a medium sized semi-country town that has a few cops but as far as I can see, they focus mainly on ticketing speeding motorists. I'd have to be very unlucky to get noticed by them on the sort of routes I'm thinking of using. Unfortunately that Lune would be too expensive for me as I need to get two of them. I've been looking at E Bikes on Ebay around the $1100 (AU) price and while I'm sure for that price I won't get a top quality bike, I simply cannot justify paying much more considering I'd only be out biking maybe once a week. I'm probably going to offend you guys by mentioning bikes like AEB-Pioneer 29” for $950 inc delivery, Nishiro Mountain Bike 36V 250W for $1220 or a KASA Foldable Bike 48V Electric E-Bike Folding Bicycle Lithium Battery Powered for just $1135 inc delivery but we don't have any bike shops here or even within 100 kilometres and our choices are extremely limited. Any thoughts anyone?





      Comment


        #4
        No offense taken. This forum is hosted by Luna who sells high powered conversion kits. That's why you see so much of that here. Plus the rules aren't too strict in the US and in many places not enforced.
        Some of the geared hub motors can be very unobtusive, and the DIY approach is simpler due to the driveline load staying the same. Higher voltage is better. The trade off is you can hear them.

        This bike would draw attention w/o the motor, but if it's fullly legal that shouldn't be an issue. A folder will probably be a little heavier, but 26" wheels can give tight handling on close quarters urban riding. Lots of proprietary parts that may or may not still be available when you need them.
        https://www.kasafactory.com/kasa-26-...-foldable-with
        The 27.5 e bike would take off road excursions and rough roads much better. Fewer proprietary parts would make repairs and up grading easier. But 40km range is not much. The big advantage of an ebike is to take long rides easily.

        At the speeds you're limited to I would look into a 500W 48V. hub motor. Not to go faster but to maintain speed with a stiff headwind. We're mostly DIYers here and would tend to convert existing bikes.
        But with no LBS to bail you out that may be risky for you. A little extra power can get you out of tight spot also.

        The closest I can come to 250W experience is riding my 1500W BBSHD in level 1-300W assist. Good for 25k/h in calm conditions. I do most of my riding there. But living near the coast 20mph winds are common, and level 2 -600W is useful. The other levels aren't used much except for high speed excursions, or acceleration in traffic, mostly using the throttle then.

        Comment


          #5
          That's fantastic advice Retrorockit. I'll let that information sink in for a day or so before re-commencing my search for the bike that best suits my needs and pocket. I must admit that KASA bike does appeal to me though.

          Comment


            #6
            40k range sounds good until you realize it's 20k range on an out and back trip. Probably useful in the big city. But maybe not enough for trekking around OZ.

            Comment


            • beanz
              beanz commented
              Editing a comment
              Yes you're right there. Mind you, having spoken with my partner about the E Bikes today, I can't see us traveling more than about 10 to 15 k's each trip.

            #7
            I'm a retired mechanic, so building my own E bike was not out of the question. But pricing the kit and talking to a local e bike shop it was $200 differnce to have it done by someone with experience..
            I know this adds up on 2 bikes but you might see if it's worth the trip to get a couple used MTB converted to 500W hub motors. It doesn't cost anything to ask around. Decent old 8 speed MTB can usually be found for around $200 or less. At the speeds you're limited to even a comfort bike would be suitable. Heavy duty off road forks and disc brakes are probably not required for your purposes.
            I converted a Gary Fisher comfort bike I already owned. The GF brand brought an off road rated street fork that a Trek would not have had. A rough estimate of a forks strength is to measure the diameter of the stanchion tubes. 25mm is street only, 28mm is light duty offroad and tend to be shorter travel versions which can help handling reaponse.
            Last edited by Retrorockit; 2 weeks ago.

            Comment


            • beanz
              beanz commented
              Editing a comment
              I have a couple of very basic mountain bikes already but they wouldn't be good enough for 'electrifying'. But I take onboard your suggestions about getting a kit. I'm reasonable good at mechanical stuff but as I've just finished building a self-contained flat, I'm pretty knackered right now so it probably wouldn't be a very good idea for me to attempt to build one. Trouble is, as I live in a small town, finding someone good at mechanical stuff will take some time. I think you have some excellent advice once again Retrorockit and I'll need to do some sums and enquiries. I actually started off looking at a hub kit a couple of weeks ago but was then put off as the kit price didn't include a battery or charger. I have also seen the kits that come with the actual wheel with a built in hub motor. Would there be one that you would choose (hub motor or actual wheel hub motor built in)? My apologies if I'm not using the right terminology.

            #8
            Without wheel building experience, and no LBS to help out, I would defifnitley look into a built wheel kit.
            Unfortunately I'm so happy with MY BBSHD mid drive for where and how I ride that I have no actual experience with hub motors. But there are several hub motor threads in this forum if you want some more specific advice.

            Comment


            • beanz
              beanz commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks for that. I've already started searching for the wheel kits. Just one more question if you don't mind, it appears that the battery is a huge part of the cost of an E Bike. I've seen some video's where people have built their own batteries from 18650 Li-ion. My way of thinking is that if I do this, if and when the battery goes tits up, it could be a case of simply finding which battery's have died and replacing them.It could also be cheaper than buying a standard E Bike battery. What are your thoughts? Again I'd like to thank you for your help, it makes so much difference to hear advice from someone who's already has knowledge and experience with E Bikes. I've just watched some of this video which seems to have been made by someone who knows what they're doing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2sBhDxmPmA The building of the battery itself starts at around the 4 minute mark. I particularly liked the plastic end clips.
              Last edited by beanz; 1 week ago.

            • AZguy
              AZguy commented
              Editing a comment
              Building or even just trying to work on a battery is likely the most non-trivial thing you could try with an electric bicycle... If you have electrical experience and aptitude, proper equipment (it will take some investment), a lot of patience and time on your hands, I would recommend you do the research before diving head first. I came to the conclusion that making just one would cost more than buying one and you need to make several for it to be worth while from a purely economical standpoint

              I think you meant if the battery goes bad you can try to replace the bad cell(s) (a battery is a group of cells) but it's not all that often that a cell or two goes bad. It does happen but it's not what I would consider a normal part of battery life... usually they all just start losing capacity and increase internal resistance, especially on the lower part of the discharge cycle until the capacity and performance has diminished it's time to replace the entire battery and it does take a while (years) even if you use the bike a lot... I've got several batteries in various stages of life and none of them have gone bad due to a bad cell... the older ones are a bit tired but still very usable...

              Hub drives do have limitations with how steep they can climb so take that into account - they also make wheel/tire maintenance a pain

            #9
            I see restrictions in your speed capabilities beanz, but nothing about motor wattage. In your shoes, I would look at a Bafang BBS02 mid-drive kit, and find a bicycle I really like. You can restrict the BBS02 so it complies with the speed requirements, it's really easy to install.

            I used v-brakes on my first mountain bikes, and I weighed 240 back then. With the low speeds you would run at, I don't even think you really need to worry about upgrading your brakes from whatever is on the bicycle, although front suspension, and disks would definitely be nice.

            Jose

            Comment


            • beanz
              beanz commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks guys. AZ guy- for some reason I couldn't post a comment to your post but I'll do so here. What I was trying to say is that IF I built a battery and THEN later, if it failed, then I'd have the possibility of replacing any cells that have failed but as you point out, it's not usually just one cell that goes so it's quite possible, my idea is a no-goer. THAT'S why posting questions of a forum such as this is a great way of learning through other members experience. I DO have some electrical background as I was a qualified electrical fitter when I was young but as that time was over 45 years ago, it's of limited help now as I've forgotten most of it. I flew radio control model aircraft for many years and that gave me some idea of battery life but those batteries were LIPO's (lithium polymer batteries) so, being different from lithium ion batteries. After walking away from R/C models for a couple of years, when I did return to it, I discovered my LIPO batteries, which had been fully charged when I put them in safe storage, were completely dead. I believe I should have stored them with little charge in them. So I suppose I still think that way about E Bike batteries.

              One of the E Bike's I've been looking at, stated that their battery should last about two years, which I thought, wasn't too impressive. Can anyone advise me roughly how many years a decent battery could last and also, is it better to use the battery (obviously the bike as well) regularly or if the battery's only used now and then, does this extend the life of the battery?

              Regarding hills and Hub drives, I cannot imagine I would be tackling anything steep. I have recently been watching video's where the bike has an electric 'hub' (if that's the right term) on the FRONT wheel and apart from occasional spinning of the tyre, on the surface there doesn't appear to be any downside to them- or is this information also wrong? Please feel free to tell me your thoughts (anyone) as the only way I will find out is either through asking or through bad experience! Thanks AZ guy. Dal-lose- I've just looked up the Bafang BBS02 mid-drive kit's online and my first thought is, they aren't cheap. Obviously they would be a quality investment though so I will not discount the possibility. I'm pleased to hear the v-brakes would be ok for my use as it's one less thing to worry about.
              Last edited by beanz; 1 week ago.

            • AZguy
              AZguy commented
              Editing a comment
              The big RC experience is good - Li-ion will die if left sitting around self-discharging... problem is where things like lead-acid love to sit all topped off on a charger, the LiPo's and the typical electric bike battery, that's sort of hard on them... it's likely close to religion and politics sometimes but some traditional knowledge will say for storage charge them to their nominal value (~3.7V/cell) and then monitor... they should self-discharge slowly so can sit for a month or three but they shouldn't be ignored or they die...

              Two years seems very low and I'd question a lot of things

              I've got batteries I still run from four years ago and they're tired but work fine and I ride a lot in all kinds of terrain and conditions

              With proper care and feeding I could see as much as ten years but that might be optimistic - too many other variables

              I use my old batteries when I'm not going far so my fresher ones aren't used so hard for the little stuff

              If going hub I would avoid a front and go rear... problem with a hub vs. a mid is that the drive is stuck in one gear... with such light horsepower it's powerful juju to have gears and in moderate power drive systems essential for anything steep..

              One of my other gripes with a hub is that it makes the wheel / tire a pain to do even trivial maintenance on

              Hub's are much easier to ride for folks with less bicycling experience since shifting gears is an option - with a mid it's an essential activity

            #10
            I was in the same predicament, im in rural SA. I did the research on some of the same bikes you have and decided that if i was going to spend some money i was going to get a middrive, i picked the bafang 750w because it was the biggest motor that was phisically identical to the 250w model, and i have some bbs02 250w 48v stickers coming for it. i used a Hasa gallop 1.0 bike $580 delivered, cheapest mountain bike with hydraulic disks i could find, shimano brakes and gears alum frame, 29" wheels 20" fram, im 6, 1. caprouge seconds battery for $450 48v17.5ah. 750w bafang kit from Vyron bikes for $850. throw in a decent seat for $50 and pedals for 35 and it came in at just under 2000 dollars Au. thats about $1400US. I am pleasantly suprised and for me the 750w is just right, if i was forced to have just 250w i wouldnt bother with it, i figured if you are sensible and dont ride like a dick all should be good. And for those that want to build your own, its a 3hr job at a relaxed pace and all you need is the bafang spanner for $20 and a 25 dollar tool kit to split the chain and take out cranks. i did have to grind a little on the bottom of the frame on this bike, was due to a large weld where the shifter cables exit the frame, but easy job.Click image for larger version  Name:	bafang sticker.jpg Views:	0 Size:	136.9 KB ID:	108825Click image for larger version  Name:	Ebike finished.jpg Views:	0 Size:	366.8 KB ID:	108826
            Last edited by mashman84; 1 week ago.

            Comment


            • beanz
              beanz commented
              Editing a comment
              Wow! That's a lot of helpful information mashman84 and thank you for going to the trouble. I LOVE the idea of putting the false stickers on the bike. Would you mind letting me know where you got them from? Also, do most (or any) motor or even EBike companies allow us to buy these stickers? Obviously the regulations in Oz are stupidly restrictive and I have no problem in getting around them. Also, just as in car driving, I use common sense in my journeys and do so sensibly. The truth is, as I am looking at two bikes, the just under $2000 for each bike would be far too much for me. I completely understand that it would be an investment in quality and would produce great performance but as I'm retired, my funds are very limited. However, I will certainly bear in mind what you've explained and add it to the growing list of information I'm taking in and weighing up before I actually pull the trigger on getting something. The annoying thing is that there's a quite decent E Bike for sale in Brisbane Queensland for $450 but as we have no train service where I live, it would be a three hour drive just to go and look at it. I'm watching the online adverts on a daily basis just in case something comes up. Thanks for your advice mashman84

            #11
            Mid drives are nice, and flat repairs, and riding with a dead batteyr are better. The speed limt makes the lack of gearing to the motor a viable option for the hub motor kit, and no chainline issues. I think either one would cover his situation. A 750W mid drive kit would certainly be a nice solution. But it would be a 40k/h bike.
            Avoid the TSDZ2 kits. they're fragile and tend to overheat.

            Comment


            • beanz
              beanz commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks Retrorockit. I'll certainly keep an eye out for the TSD22 kits so I can avoid them. I even think a 5ooW hub or drive would be easily enough for my needs. I only weigh 70 kgs, my partner only weighs about 60 kgs and most of our roads here are either flat/gentle slopes or definitely the sorts of hills that could be walked up without puffing too much. Having a 40 k per hour bike would be ok-ish but I would love a bit more speed.

            #12
            A 1500W BBSHD will test your driveline maintenance skills in a way that a 500-750W mid d rive won't. Especialy if ridden in a limited environment. So it's not a bad option at all.

            Comment


            • beanz
              beanz commented
              Editing a comment
              I'm getting a bit confused now. What a pain it is to be a newbie! I'm looking on Ebay at the moment and looking at rear hub kits as it seems to me to be an easy-ish way into electric biking. For instance this; https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/26-1000W...EAAOSwFVFdPryR

              states 1000W 48V and includes an LCD meter. Would that be a decent performance? Also, am I right that the LCD meter is to show you what speed you are doing etc? My apologies for being thick but maybe I've just confused myself. Finally is this kit crap or ok? Any advice would be appreciated. While I could pay up to around $400 for a rear hub kit, I don't want to do that unless I have to. Without wanting to be spoon fed, is there any conversion kits on Ebay or similar places that you would guess, would be decent? I've just spoken with my local bike shop and they have absolutely no E bikes in stock until September at the earliest and when I asked if they ever get involved with kit or could fit one for me they actually laughed at me and said 'Absolutely never'. I'll take than as a 'no' then.
              Last edited by beanz; 1 week ago.

            • AZguy
              AZguy commented
              Editing a comment
              I'd avoid a front hub... if you want to go hub do a rear

            #13
            Ease of conversion favors the hubmotor. And with a limited speed range (since they have no transmission between the motor and the wheel) they're OK for your use.
            To fix a flat you have to deal with wiring and whatever torque arm device is there. Probaly requiring tools. They have magnetic drag when rolling un powered.
            750W=1HP.
            The mid drives are a liitle harder to install because special tools are needed to deal with the bottom bracket.. More a matter of a little extra time than anything.
            All added power goes through the chain. You lose whatever front gears you had (again not an issue @ 25k/h). There can be issues with chainline and sometimes chain drop to contend with.
            A more versatile solution as far as range of speeds goes. I would consider 500W a minimum, 1000W is plenty. 48V is the preferred Voltage. There is no right or wrong answer there.
            Bafang makes both types and they are a respected brand. Also users in this forum are familiar with them and can help with any issues.
            The LCD display will have speed,battery state of charge and usually miles on it.
            You've tested the water with your LBS and it looks like you'er on your own. In my area there are many to choose from, and I go to one 20 miles away who likes the challenges my bike presents.
            When I showed up with a rare reverse pattern Shimnao Rapid Rise grip shift he sold me the matching XTR short cage derailer for $30. He also took the time to narrow a bottom bracket shell for me on a Nexus bike to get the chainline where I wanted it. Single speed chain is very fussy about chainline, multi speed it changes alll the time anyway. 3 speed IGH is a respectable choice for a mid drive, and narow cogs can be found to run an 8 speed chain to help with alignment issues. No need to get confused. You have choices. That's agood thing! if you could renat a bike or 2 that would help.

            Comment


            • beanz
              beanz commented
              Editing a comment
              Thank you so much Retrorockit. That makes sense to me. I'm now going to sit back and let all this information sink in for a few days before making any decisions. A few days away from the computer will clarify a lot.

            #14
            Hi Thanks to some great advice on this forum I recently purchased two Fortis 20" 36V 10Ah Foldable Electric Bike's for my partner and I which I'm pleased with. I'll only be using them for riding on bike paths and quiet reasonably flat roads. I realise these bikes are nowhere near the power of the sort of bikes most forum members have but I believe if I can get this next bit sorted the bikes will be great for us. However the problem is I'm finding my almost 66 year old legs are struggling with the constant peddling on this PAS bike. Is there a way to easily add a thumb throttle? Or, assuming these bikes have cadence sensors is there an inexpensive way of tricking the sensor into thinking I'm peddling when I'm not? If either of these things are possible I'd prfer to do it without it being obvious so Plod doesn't get interested as I live in Australia and, I believe bikes HAVE to be PAS. I'm not sure if we are allowed to have PAS and a throttle though. Here's the bike in case anyone's interested; https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/fortis-...electric-bike/

            Comment


              #15
              That looks like a regular old hall sensor on your cranks. So long as it see's a magnet passing by the sensor, it will trigger the motor. A low tech solution would be connecting a separate sensor, and then a little motor spinning the magnet wheel triggers the sensor. You could test by spinning the magnet wheel with a power screwdriver. Maybe it has cadence sensing too so that it can keep up with your pace.

              If the test works, you could 3d print something to hold the whole thing, and voila'. If it is cadence sensing, you would need to design a circuit to vary motor speed on your throttle input.

              Jose
              Last edited by DaHose; 2 days ago.

              Comment


              • beanz
                beanz commented
                Editing a comment
                Thank you Dal-lose. I've just looked and, yes, there is a disc with what appears to be either magnets on or I presume, some kind of triggering points. I've also just looked online and seen how others have taken that disc (which is on my crank arm if that's the right terminology) and put it else here like the front wheel but I think the idea of that is to remove the speed limiter (which I also want to do). Time to experiment I think.
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