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Torque sensing on the X-1

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    Torque sensing on the X-1

    I own two X-1 Enduros, one for me, one for my wife. Both bikes work wonderfully, they are magic bikes. On a 5 level assist program, levels one and two both work well, level one providing just enough assist to make the big 55lb bike feel a little lighter. Level 2 begins to assist within half a rotation of the crank, and gives you the sensation you have a strong wind at your back, or your legs are much stronger than you thought. Level 3 is quite strong, still proportional to how much leg you put into it, great for long climbs if you are getting tired. A good friend of mine rode my bike, liked it so well he ordered one. Just got it a couple of weeks ago. The motor and assist are quite different. Levels 1 and 2 are totally useless, 3 is sort of OK, but not really proportional to how much leg you put into it. We will call my bike, the good one, bike A. The bad bike with assist that sucks, bike B. So we begin to try and communicate with Luna, an find it is like a game of Whack a Mole. No one will talk to you, no one knows anything about the products they sell, they will make no commitment to fixing bike B. This is the honest truth, the folks at Luna did not know a bike like mine existed, one that really works with 5 real levels of assist. The folks at Luna defer everything to Bafang, stating Luna has no control of, or knowledge of, programming, or any knowledge of whether the torque sensors work, or are supposed to work. One Luna employee has an X-1, and it is a bike B. He wants my motor. No way! So I figure that E-Bikes are kind of new, knowledge of just what goes on is scarce, and there are few people you can ask questions of and get a knowledgeable answer. OK. So with this post, I am letting you folks know, a Bafang M600 can work as you would like it to. I have one. If you have a bike B, you should start raising Holy Hell. This odd relationship between Luna and Bafang sucks for the customers, and Luna needs to amend it soon. Owners of B bikes need to have them fixed, and soon. $3500 for a bike with the first two assist levels being useless sucks. So how many of you out there have a bike B? And has anyone gotten an adequate explanation as to why we cannot buy a spare battery for our X-1?

    #2
    Your description of your Bike A sounds a lot like what EL34 says about his earlier X-1. We have seen many accounts here about X-1's like your buddy's Bike B. It seems like there could be a couple different things going on. A controls (software and tuning) difference or maybe something with the function or calibration of the torque sensor itself.

    Did you guys observe the same performance at Level 4 and 5 assist between the two bikes?

    Comment


      #3
      On bike B, levels 4 and 5 were pretty much identical to level 3. On the A bike, levels 4 and 5 are more powerful than 3, and as such it is difficult to tell if the power is proportional to torque input. I use 4 and 5 little to not at all, 3 is as high as I need. Note that none of these bikes have the ludicrous mod.

      Comment


        #4
        Wow, that's both interesting and concerning. What is your friend going to do with his if he can't get it resolved with Luna? Send it back?

        I have an X-1 from the recent batch coming soon and if it performs like your buddy's bike, I'm not sure what that means for me. Hmmm. The video reviews online suggest that those bikes had performance like your Bike A and like EL34's bike. That's what got me interested in the X-1.

        Comment


          #5
          The concern my friend has is that the people at Luna seem quite detached from their customers, and their products. They have given no commitment to my friend, just a "If we find out what the difference is between your bikes, we'll let you know." I suspect Luna will get that bike back. Another thing I wonder about is the other brands of E-Bikes that use Bafang. Are their bikes performing with acceptable assist levels? Biktrix, FLX, M2S, and so on. If they are performing OK, what's the deal with Luna?

          Comment


            #6
            Yes, that's an understandable concern, no doubt.

            There's a lengthy M500/M600 thread on the Endless Sphere forum speaking to the question about other uses of the M600 and from reading the latter part of that thread, it sounds like one of the items I mentioned above - either the sensors are not calibrated correctly or the tuning is weird. The strange aspect of this is that it seems like there are bikes out of the same build batch that are both Bike A and Bike B. Which makes me think that it's not a firmware/tuning thing. If it was a tuning/programming thing, it seems like they should all have the same performance?

            Here's the thread I referred to, there's a mixture of info on the M500 and M600 but includes discussion of M600 performance with other brands. The later part of the long thread is probably of most interest to your question and worth a read to get a broader picture:
            https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...?f=28&t=100777

            Comment


              #7
              Seems to be a grab bag of results. Odd, in todays world, there is not some uniformity in the performance of the M600. Luna informed me that Luna had nothing to do with the programing of the motors, was unable to break into the Bafang program to see what was in it, and had no idea if the torque sensors were all the same, or from varying suppliers. That is why Luna has no idea what the difference between the A and B bikes is. Whether this is true or not, there are solutions to the problem. Bafang would be a good place to start. Bafang should know what they are putting into these motors, and should know how to fix this little problem. Further, my friend with the B bike should have had an immediate offer of at least a new motor.

              Comment


              • eskachig
                eskachig commented
                Editing a comment
                You can get the firmware/hardware versions from the information menu on the bikes. Probably a good place to start.

              #8
              Same problem on my Luna BABE. 1 and 2 are useless. 4 and 5 do give me more assist. I'll be interested to see when somebody with a "B"bike runs an aftermarket controller to see if it cures the problem. I don't have faith Luna will resolve any problems with the motor, or the Internal Hub Transmission on mine. They sell a frame with "LUNA" decals on the side. Everything else you are on your own. Don't bother us, we don't build the motors.

              Comment


                #9
                I have become just a little nervous about owning a Luna bike. There is a warranty on the frame, the motor, and all else, but apparently it is worthless. I wish to buy an extra battery pack for this bike, but it is not available, and no one will make a statement as to when I might be able to buy one. Probably never. And what good is this bike without a battery pack, if the one in it begins to fail, as they all eventually will? I will say this, my X-1 is a fantastic bike. Whoever designed it did a good job. I am fortunate that I have a couple of "A" bikes. But I lurk on the FLX, M2S, Biktrix, and Dost sites, and am jealous, I suppose that is the best word, that they all claim to get genuine customer support from the folks that they purchased the bike from. And just who is this mythical "Eric", does he live in the clouds with the Greek Gods? Or did he die a few years ago, and they have him taxidermied, stuffed, overlooking the operations, or lack of, at Luna?

                Comment


                • kengps
                  kengps commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Luna assembles parts basically. You do get a huge price discount for that. After the trouble I've had with my BABE I decided against an X1. I bought a new 2021 Turbo Levo. Yes, I paid dearly, but anything wrong and it's covered front to back. They won't tell me to contact Fox or Brose if I have trouble with the suspension or motor. It is an awesome bike too, I gotta say. Unreal refinement, and quiet. They were having problems with the 2019 and 2020 motors, but seems to be solved now. Speialized extended 2 year warranties on those bikes to 4 years. Can't beat that for standing behind their product.

                • eskachig
                  eskachig commented
                  Editing a comment
                  The X-1 is really a Dengfu M09 exported to the states under license. Get in touch with Dengfu, I'm sure they'll sell you a battery.

                #10
                If you can do a controller swap between an A bike and a B bike, it would narrow down the solution pretty quickly. At least we would know if it's just a controller swap thats needed.

                NEVER MIND.....I just read somewhere that controllers are keyed to the motor. So supposedly they will not work with another motor.

                I sure hope somebody can do an aftermarket controller for the M600.
                Last edited by kengps; 09-17-2020, 12:59 AM.

                Comment


                • Buzzard68
                  Buzzard68 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Actually, we did swap out the display between the two bikes. No change there, both bikes remained the same. I am wondering if anyone knows what, if any, motors will swap out mount wise for the M600. Such as the M620. I have doubts that Luna is going to fix my friends bike. I found a site that will sell an M620 for mid $600s. Just wondering. Seems to be very little info anywhere on these questions.

                • eskachig
                  eskachig commented
                  Editing a comment
                  M500 has the same mounts. Might have the same connectors too, I'm looking into that.

                • kengps
                  kengps commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Looks to me the M500 and M600 is the same motor. On is labeled 250 watts, and the other 500 watts. Both are advertised as 95-110 newton meters torque.

                #11
                It seems the controller for the M600 is a Bafang exclusive so far. I've been shopping Bafang motors, lots of BBS versions (no torque sensor as I understand), not many M600-M620, Ultra and so on for sale. I wish there was a descriptive manual or article on Bafang motors, including interchangeability, mounting requirements, features, etc. It also baffles me as to how Luna can claim it's own programming for the controller for their ludicrous mode, yet say that they have no ability to even check the programming of these motors.

                Comment


                  #12
                  I did some testing today with my Luna BABE. Using the throttle only, level 1-3: 270, 450,670 watts. But using PAS I get: 3, 145, 740 watts. So seems to be an appropriate spread of power using throttle. But PAS is practically zero assist on level 1, a small amount on level 2, and a huge jump up to level 3.

                  The PAS on level 2 requires a hill and really standing on the pedals. Otherwise on level ground I see 25-30 watts. PAS level 3 on level ground easily hits 500-600 watts.

                  Note: PAS level 5 on a steep incline will peak at 980 watts.
                  Last edited by kengps; 09-17-2020, 04:56 PM.

                  Comment


                    #13
                    Originally posted by kengps View Post
                    I did some testing today with my Luna BABE. Using the throttle only, level 1-3: 270, 450,670 watts. But using PAS I get: 3, 145, 740 watts. So seems to be an appropriate spread of power using throttle. But PAS is practically zero assist on level 1, a small amount on level 2, and a huge jump up to level 3.
                    Seems like we have heard that the assist power should be the same for each level, whether via PAS or Throttle. Your results make me think there's something up with the torque sensor calibration or the way the info from the torque sensor is being handled that is keeping the system from hitting the power levels they should under pedal assist. Seems like if you got those same steps in power under PAS, you'd have something much more like what EL34 and others describe on their bikes.

                    Comment


                      #14
                      KENGPS, It is a brilliant idea to check the wattage output using throttle vs pedaling. On my bike, the output is very near the same, throttle vs pedal, in all assist levels. It really does not require a hefty pedal stroke to initiate the assist, it starts as soon as the pedal crank has gone about one half turn.

                      Comment


                        #15
                        I definitely have the "bad" version. PAS 1 and 2 are useless, unless I'm pushing on the flats in a high gear, and even then not all that useful but at least the motor is doing *something* - climbing a hill in granny gear I get no assist at all. This was something I was prepared for after reading all the discussion on the topic, but it still sucks. I am not going to return the bike, because I'm having a pretty fantastic time in PAS 3, but it is a bummer. it doesn't sound like Luna service will be able to help so I haven't bothered either.

                        I'm also considering swapping in an M500 which has the same mounts and is supposed to be more refined through the range.

                        For the record, my hardware/firmware numbers from the "early August" shipment. It may be possible to flash our motors with the firmware that works better. Doing so requires getting your hands on the firmware and the Bafang programming tool. Bafang might be able to send us a version that they shipped with those early X1s. Apparently Luna might be able to provide a temp user login, but there are ways to bypass that as well.

                        Controller
                        Software CRX10NC4818i132014.5
                        Hardware CR X10N.500.FC 3.2

                        Torque sensor
                        Software SRPA212CF10101.0
                        Hardware SR PA21232ST.C 1.0

                        Someone with a good M600 bike - can you check your versions? On the X1 you can do it through the information menu.
                        Last edited by eskachig; 10-05-2020, 01:13 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Buzzard68
                          Buzzard68 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I just checked both of my bikes, both are standard (non-ludicris) mode, steel gear (non silent), so I assume delivered to me as they come from China. Both are A type bikes, run perfectly, a joy to ride. My controller and torque software and hardware are the same as yours with the exception of controller soft ware ending in .6 instead of .5 (the last numbers are 132014.6). There is the difference of where a dot goes on the torque software, mine ends with CF10101.0. I assume you may have gotten a dot wrong, or there actually is a difference there as well. I'll double check mina again to be sure.

                        • kengps
                          kengps commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Everyone else has 10101.0 Torque Software. Maybe eskachig got the dot wrong. Otherwise everything is the same with exception of controller software.

                        • eskachig
                          eskachig commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Yeah, I looked back at my original photo of that readout, and it looks like I made a typo somewhere. I edited it.
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