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    #16
    Luna now tells me that "All the M600's are like that, little assist in 1 and 2, and 3 too much" Says there is nothing they can do. I'm waiting for an explanation as to why others have M600's that work fine in 1 and 2. I know it's a waste of time. Luna is not going to provide a solution. They will continue to make excuses. I've learned my lesson concerning bike builders who put parts together with Chinese motors and call it good. Just bought another bike from a company that will stand behind the whole bike and make it good. Really glad I didn't add an X1 as my second bike. My Luna BABE will get moved to Florida where I need a lot of power anyway on soft sand. At least its not wasted money.

    Now they tell me it's because the ones that work good have the Ludicris Controller. I know several (EL34 is well known poster) that work without Ludi.
    Last edited by kengps; 10-01-2020, 04:52 PM.

    Comment


    • Buzzard68
      Buzzard68 commented
      Editing a comment
      I can tell you that Luna is dead wrong about all m600s being the same. Having a friend purchase an X-1 and it being a Type B bike was an odd coincident to reveal the differences in these bikes. I have checked my hardware and software numbers, posted them as comment on another post of yours. I will say that the X-1, one that runs as it should, is a bike well worth having. It is an exceptional mountain bike in every way. Luna was, or seemed to be, unaware that a bike could run like mine. One of their employees has an X-1, a type B bike, and wanted me to send him my motor. Fat chance! It would, however, be to everyone's advantage to find out what the difference is, and get all of them to work as they should. Maybe it is as simple as the controller software flash, and maybe Luna could get on the stick and find out how to reflash the bad ones.

    #17
    Yeah, the Ludi controller explanation doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

    This could be tested by dropping in a non-Luna M600 into the bike, or flashing the firmware with one of the sets of firmware that's been collected on the endless-sphere forum. But most of us only have one bike and one motor, without a lot of avenues for experimentation. I'm starting to actively look for a 48v M500 motor, so if anyone knows where I can buy one...

    Comment


      #18
      I think the general consensus is becoming that EL34 has some angel/halo/unicorn bike from an early run. He has posted that level 1 of 9 is 'too much' power on a non-ludi bike, frequently rides 30+ miles using 20-30% of the battery and posts top speeds near the mid 40mph range!

      I think one of the main issues is they have four different sizes of bike, riders ranging from ~5'2" (or less) to 6'9" (or more), a wide spectrum of physical abilities and an equally wide spectrum of riding conditions, ludi and non ludi bikes, and a notable group of people ditched the original chain ring for something different and unlocked a higher gear which was originally locked out. For all of this, there is ONE UNCHANGEABLE factory program. (or possibly two if you want to say the ludi got something different than standard) FWIW, my X1 ludi is similar... 1, 2 don't seem to do too much (on flat ground) though on a steep hill, they will almost pull the pedal around too fast - especially if standing to pedal. In 3, the bike really wakes up like a rocket, and then 4 and 5 are small incremental boosts again.

      What to do... well not sure. We all know of the one unchangeable program when buying the bike. Hope someone eventually comes up with a hack? From reading, that seems tedious at best with the real possibility of bricking the whole controller.

      Depending on where your chain ring is at, you might try swapping up or down in size - though that is going to change power/torque across the board, not just in 1, 2 and not 3, 4, 5. You might also try the 9 level assist. Some claim it helps to have a few more levels under the 'magic' level where the power pours on. There is also the old standby... when I feel the bike is getting too much power, I stop pedaling... the power dies off after half a second or so! I've even been known to grab the brakes to reign in the power on some occasions!

      Sorry I can't offer much more!

      Comment


      • Buzzard68
        Buzzard68 commented
        Editing a comment
        I have two bikes, one for myself, one for my wife. Both are non ludicris, mine is an XL frame, red, my wife's is a medium frame, flat black. We are quite different in physical build, but get similar results from our bikes. Assist works well in all levels, it is stepped in levels that seem to be well thought out. I use level two and three most often, three for long steep hills. This in a 5 level program. My wife uses similar levels with similar results. After a fifteen mile trail ride, we have each used about 15-18% of the battery level. After that, if we don't charge, the level seems to drop a little faster, as if the battery level measurement is not quite accurate across the battery's capacity.

      • eskachig
        eskachig commented
        Editing a comment
        Since you have two "known good" bikes - can you post your software/hardware versions just for our records? If someone gets around to flashing with Bafang firmware, it would be good to know which one to ask for.

      #19
      I started this thread, and I'll update how we got here, and what's happening. I purchased an X-1 in March, delivered in April. I liked it so much, I ordered on for my wife in April, delivered in mid May. Both bikes run like a dream, assist comes in as you start pedaling, levels 1 through 3 (in a 5 level program) are most used, and assist is proportional to pedal input. Riding in assist level 2 is like having a strong wind at your back constantly, just really sweet! I let a friend try out my bike, he liked it so well he ordered one. It arrived in August. It was a huge disappointment. Assist did not exist through the pedals in level 1 or 2. Level 3 works, but it is jumpy, hard to modulate on a tight trail. He tried (tried is the unfortunate keyword here) to contact Luna, I unknowingly assured him the folks at Luna would fix this. Nope, nope, and nope. Can't talk to them, they are allergic to talking on the phone. One employee at Luna has an X-1, it is as poor performing as my friends, and they are telling customers that that performance is normal. Luna apparently has no spare motors (apply this fact to what confidence you may have in any warranty), and little knowledge of what the differences between a good running bike and a poor running bike would be. I'll omit the details of my friends negotiations up to this point, let's just say there is no satisfaction. Is the problem in the controller, the torque sensor, or where? We don't know. Luna ought to know. Here are the hardware and software numbers from my two bikes, and the two bikes are the same in these numbers. Controller hardware: CRX10N.500.FC3.2 Software: CRX10NC4818132 014.6 Torque sensor hardware: SRPA212.32.ST.C 1.0 software: SRPA212CF10101.0 On the controller software, there may be an i right behind the numbers 4818, hard to see on my display. My friends bike, as well as one other that runs poorly, has a controller software # ending in 5 rather than 6. Is that the difference? Don't know, it would be nice if someone who does this stuff for a living and is knowledgable would step in and solve this. Everyone with a poor running bike deserves better (my friend sure does), when you spend $3500 for a bike.

      Comment


      • kengps
        kengps commented
        Editing a comment
        My bad bike ends in "5", So...thats 3 bad bikes with "5", and 2 good bikes with a "6"
        Last edited by kengps; 10-04-2020, 04:48 PM.

      #20
      Just got on some newer reading glasses, and here is the controller software # on my bike: CRX10NC4818i132014.6 I would love to hear that there exists the ability to reflash the controller to this version, and that that will solve the problem. Anyone know?

      Comment


        #21
        Luna seems to think they can flash a motor now. Here is their latest reply. Maybe someone understands it better than me....

        For better or worse, the PAS on these bikes is functioning as intended. The owner of our company wanted the lowest levels to be not too strong, and intentionally had them programmed lower than you may expect. While I can not speak to the subjective experience of other people reporting something else, perhaps they appreciate having it that way, or maybe some bikes shipped without being flashed, who knows.

        While Eric may want it a certain way, I get that you do not. Reprogramming firmware is way outside the scope of our support team, and our team has no company access or info on that kind of thing, as we are all remote contractors. However, in the interest of being able to at least explore whether there was something I could do to help, I was able to independently source the various tools and logins needed to flash a motor. If you happen to have a bin file for the firmware you prefer, I would be happy to test it on a drive. If it does not break something we might be able to work out some kind of creative solution.

        Not sure if you would be able to email a bin file given that it often gets flagged, but it is my understanding you could upload it to google drive and make it shareable. So if you do find some firmware out there that is supposedly better, feel free to hit us up with a shareable bin file from drive as that would probably be best way to go about it.
        Last edited by kengps; 10-04-2020, 04:49 PM.

        Comment


        • eskachig
          eskachig commented
          Editing a comment
          This is an employee who wants a good X-1 for himself hahaha. Point them to the 14.6 firmware that I posted elsewhere.

          Translation, Eric had Bafang neuter low PAS levels, perhaps testing it on a high-geared platform on flat ground. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me here. Anyone who would attempt to use the new firmware in a MTB application in a low gear would immediately notice that it's more or less useless at low PAS. Sounds like the lucky ones are the folks whose motors didn't get flashed with Luna firmware simply due to a QA mishap.

          Sounds like those of us who want fully functional mountain-ready M600s need to get our hands on the firmware flashing tool. Or maybe we can send our motors to Luna so this enterprising person do it for us. But if you are in an area with other X-1 owners (I'm sure there are a few of us in the SF bay area) it might make more sense to form a club. It sounds like the Bafang login process can be bypassed with a local python app spoofing responses from the server.
          Last edited by eskachig; 10-04-2020, 07:35 PM.

        #22
        We need a survey. Is your bike good or bad? Does it end in "14.5" or "14.6"?

        I set one up on another thread, plus asked on X1 thread. So far 4 bad bikes with a "14.5", and 2 good bikes with a "14.6".
        Last edited by kengps; 10-04-2020, 10:55 PM.

        Comment


          #23
          Interesting information - maybe we are starting to make progress.

          Btw, the 14.6 bin file seems to be available here:

          https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...0777&start=350

          You just have to download and rename the txt to bin. You know, I'm going to try and repost it here.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by eskachig; 10-04-2020, 07:13 PM.

          Comment


          • kengps
            kengps commented
            Editing a comment
            Awesome. We now have 4 Bad cases of 14.5, and 2 good 14.6 motors. 1 good 14.4 motor.
            Last edited by kengps; 10-05-2020, 12:25 PM.

          • eskachig
            eskachig commented
            Editing a comment
            Fingers crossed your Luna contact can use this file and see if it turns low PAS back on.
            Last edited by eskachig; 10-04-2020, 10:07 PM.

          #24
          Do the other numbers match (controller and torque sensor hardware/software) between the Good/A bikes and the Bad/B bikes?

          Are the rest of the characters in the controller software the same right up until the .5 / .6 ? Looks like a versioning thing.

          Comment


          • eskachig
            eskachig commented
            Editing a comment
            Yeah, it's a versioning thing. The are some other things encoded into the firmware, so we don't really know where the major or minor version number begins, but clearly these are just iterations.

            The 43v version of the firmware, for example is CRX10NC4320i132045.6-20200806.bin - the last part is the origin date, the motor type is in there, and you can see where 48 is replaced with 43.

            But that's mostly just record keeping from Bafang's perspective, they have to manage thousands of these files.

            The .6 firmware is dated for Nov '19, so I'm not surprised that the first shipment of bikes doesn't have it - the ones customers Like El34 were receiving that month were already built and shipped by the time it came out. Looks like .4 was standard at the time, and the .5 is our gimped Luna-specific version. The latest 48v firmware we have floating around is .6, that seems to be Bafang's current. Someone on endless-sphere reported receiving it from Bafang's customer support recently.
            Last edited by eskachig; 10-05-2020, 03:54 PM.

          • Desmodromic
            Desmodromic commented
            Editing a comment
            I have one coming on Wednesday so I'll have to see how its number line up to these, but on the motor case and as reported on the display.

          #25
          Yes, everything is the same. Now we have:
          1 bike with version 14.4 too much power (first X1 delivery run)(EL34 says too much power in 1 and 2 out of 9)
          5 bikes with version 14.5 no to miniscule power
          3 bikes with version 14.6 just right
          Last edited by kengps; 10-05-2020, 05:50 PM.

          Comment


            #26
            I cannot fathom this mythical Eric, whoever he may actually be, specifying that the bikes he sells run poor on purpose. Odd that he failed to state that in the advertisements. A couple of new things. Luna sent my friend a motor in a box, an M600, obviously a used one, to try, to see if it would be any better than the on his bike came with. Luna also wants his new motor, from his new bike, back. Is a cold day in hell coming up soon? So we installed this "loaner" motor, checked first thing on the display, noted it was a .5 motor. It ran slightly better, in that it was quieter, had less drag in levels 1 and 2, but still had near no assist in 1 or 2. The other thing is, we noticed that on the side of the motors with the cooling fins, there is a cover with fins, and on one of the fins is a stick on number plate with the software # for the controller . Only thing of real note here is that it did not agree with what was actually in the controller on a couple of our bikes. My type A bikes with the .6 software have .5 on the decal. The loaner motor had .6 on the decal, and .5 in the actual software. Someone is sure mixing things up. Something I feel I should say at this point. Whoever designed this bike, and whoever builds this bike, has done a wonderful job. It is an incredible electric mountain bike! There is no Specialized, Trek, Salsa, or Cannondale that will compete with it. However, I am blessed with having received the .6 versions, but am still a bit nervous as to the lack of support from Luna. What good is a warranty if Luna will not respond, and feels no responsibility to make a customer happy? Will I ever be able to purchase an extra battery pack for this bike? I guess I incorrectly assumed Luna was a small company with a real brick and mortar store front, with actual employees and people. Giving a lot of room for this Covid thing to disrupt a small company, the response from Luna has been pitiful.

            Comment


            • eskachig
              eskachig commented
              Editing a comment
              I believe Eric is the company owner. I'm not sure why he requested these motors to be like they are. Maybe he tried it out in a high gear on flat ground, or something. And after all, there are some owners of the "good" bikes that say they want a little less power in low PAS, like El34.

              Still, the end result is essentially unusable in most mountain biking situations in low PAS, which is a bummer. I'm hoping Luna can help us out and restore Bafang's stock firmware. Even if they wanted less assist, they should have lowered the max wattage, not torque requirements/multiplier.

              Yeah, this is frustrating, but Luna doesn't hide the somewhat DIY nature of their products, and this bike is half the cost of its competition. And at the very least, it *is* a blast in PAS-3.
              Last edited by eskachig; 10-05-2020, 04:06 PM.

            • Mike_V
              Mike_V commented
              Editing a comment
              "Torque sensor" means 'You pedal like donkey, while sweating up the hill'
              E.Shere

            #27
            Interesting that EL34 has version 14.4 and complained it has too much power in 1 and 2 out of 9. Purely speculation on my part...but was 14.4 too much, they turned it down to nearly nothing on 14.5, then got it right on 14.6??

            Comment


            • eskachig
              eskachig commented
              Editing a comment
              I actually suspect that 14.5 is a special Luna version - other companies with M600s are getting the 14.6. 14.6 is dated to November '19 after all, it's not new, yet the new shipment of X-1s still had 14.5 on it.

            #28
            OK, sounds optimistic from what I'm hearing from Luna CS. They think they have what they need now to re-flash the motors to 14.6 version. Will take 2-3 weeks to research and test it out. They were very happy to be getting all the info and links that were posted here on the forum. Fingers crossed. Big thanks to Buzzard68 and eskachig.
            Last edited by kengps; 10-06-2020, 10:40 AM.

            Comment


              #29
              You guys may want to have a look at the new Archon X1 controller from Wattwagons (initially the Innotrace controller from Germany and found on the Exess bike)
              Lots of very positive feedback from people who say power delivery is a lot smoother and energy consumption quite lower. And you can have access to the programming software to change the mapping of the pedal assist in an understandable way (unlike the original Bafang SW).

              https://wattwagons.com/pages/archon-x1-controller

              Some forum feedback
              https://electricbikereview.com/forum...erience.37309/

              Comment


              • eskachig
                eskachig commented
                Editing a comment
                That's for a different motor - but these guys are supposed to have an M600 version coming out soon.

                Still, that means another $700+ and you void your Bafang warranty.

              #30
              I'm going to go out on a limb here and state what I think has happened. Eric Luna has stated firmly that he worked with Bafang to create a better program for the M600. That better program is the 14.5. Understand that Bafang can hang any tag it wishes on a program. The 14.5 we have been getting is probably not the program that Mr. Luna wanted. I suspect that 14.6 is Bafang's own program with the best of what they developed with Eric Luna, and other enhancements. Bafang then trashed the 14.5 program. Why you ask? It is Chinese ego to have the best, usually by theft. At this moment I am not suspecting Luna Cycles of any poor quality or design. I do suspect Bafang of playing tricks on Luna, as well as the customers of Luna.

              Comment


              • eskachig
                eskachig commented
                Editing a comment
                I doubt that they bothered to handicap their customers tbh. I think that what happened was that Luna and Bafang developed this firmware under ridiculous pressure without much actual field testing (3 days while the Chinese dude was jetlagged) on a Ludi bike. It was never adequately tested or iterated on, and I doubt anyone went on a proper enduro-style mtb ride on it to really test out the effects, especially on non-Ludi bikes.

                And I don't know what else Luna could have done, given the way Bafang locked down their ecosystem and the requirements of the Ludi bikes.

                14.6 sounds a lot like 14.4 tbh - what El34 is riding. Maybe a little smoother.

                Honestly I don't think it's productive to blame anyone, the situation is what it is, the history is not that important. I'd rather get our bikes fixed, once we figure out a path forward.
                Last edited by eskachig; 10-11-2020, 07:07 PM.
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