Software survey needed on Torque sensing problems.

[kengps]

If you are not aware....There are two different outcomes with the M600 powered Luna X1's and BABE's. One version is good, with nice evenly spaced PAS from levels 1-5. The other lacks any PAS in level 1, and level 2 has a small amount of power only if you are really standing hard on the pedals. Another forum member has seen both bike types, and sees two different software codes. So far, It appears the software ending in number 14.5 follows the bad ones, and software ending in 14.6 follows the good ones. Please check your bike and report. Much appreciated.

To read: get into "Information", then select "Controller info", then push the + button. Should read either "CRX10NC4818i132014.5" (or ending in "14.6")

[eskachig]

As a data point I already posted elsewhere, I have a bad bike with the 14.5 firmware. I posted the 14.6 firmware in the other thread on X-1 torque sensing, if someone can make use of it.

[kengps]

OK, sounds optimistic from what I'm hearing from Luna CS. They think they have what they need now to re-flash the motors to 14.6 version. Will take 2-3 weeks to research and test it out. They were very happy to be getting all the info and links that were posted here on the forum. Fingers crossed. Big thanks to Buzzard68 and eskachig.

[Eric Luna]

Hey guys i want to clear this up. The Luna bikes that are sent out with 14.5 is the luna custom program and "is the good one" and the one we have always sent out with our m600 bikes. We spent days working on the luna firmware with our team and a few bafang engineers and it is proprietary to luna. if you have a bike with 14.6 on it it means your bike was not flashed with our custom program. The way you can tell if your bike has the luna firmware on it is remove the magnet and throttle up your bike with the wheel in the air...if you get an error and the bike shuts down after 30 or so seconds... you have 14.6 which is the stock bafang software and it is our strong opinion this firmware is no good. it is choppy and not torque sensor like in the lower levels. We purposely tuned the bike down in the lower levels for people who wanted a real torque sensor feel. I think the luna custom firmware is much better than the stock bafang firmware for sure. This is especially true if your bike has a ludicrous upgrade....where the problem of choppy lower levels is really compounded. In general in all levels the luna firmware has a smoother more torque sensor feel ...not a throttle on and off feel.

[kengps]

So far the score is 4 bikes with 14.4 or 14.6, they like it. 5 bikes with 14.5, they hate it. All the 14.5 bikes are described exactly the same.....No power in PAS 1, minimal power in PAS 2 if you really stand hard on the pedals. PAS 3 a lot of power. On mine, level ground, I get 2 watts in PAS 0. 3 watts in PAS 1, 25-30 watts in PAS 2, and 740 watts in PAS 3.

Latest score: 5 bikes with 14.4 or 14.6= all good. 6 bikes with 14.5= all bad.

[Buzzard68]

Dear Mr. Eric Luna, I wish to clear things up about the programming on the X-1 Enduro and other bikes with the M600 motor. I am one of the few, if not the only, customer to have access to both the 14.5 and 14.6 bikes. My wife and I own two X-1s with 14.6, and a good friend liked my bike well enough that he ordered one, only to get a 14.5 programmed bike. The 14.6 is a joy to use. The PAS levels (and I will only refer to a 5 level program) are nicely stepped, assist comes in nearly immediately when you begin to pedal, assist is progressive with pedal input, assist is always smooth, and there always seems to be a level that is perfect for the moment, whether on trails or road. After my first 100 miles of riding, my assessment was that this is a near perfect bike. I do find that I use levels 4 and 5 nearly not at all, and wondered why the need for the ludicrous upgrade. On to my friends 14.5. We went on a ride together for his first ride on his new bike. Phillip was struggling to keep up. There was not a lot of happiness going on. I asked what was going on. He stated that levels 1 and 2 did not seem to work, and level 3 was too much in many places, and jumpy in delivery. We traded bikes, and all that he said was true. You may know someone named Joel, I think he is associated with Luna Bikes. He owns a 14.5 X-1. Joel also misses having an active assist level 1 and 2. Ask him. If you feel invested in this 14.5 program, and are proud of it, fine. As a person in business, you need to sell the public what they want, not what you want. Have you personally ridden a 14.5 X-1? And have you ridden a 14.6 X-1? Now here is where I may need an education. We are getting the controller software # from the display info. Is that an accurate #? I have noticed that the M600 motor cases have a label on the fins of a cover with a software # on that label. It does not always agree with the # we get from the display. So please comment on this. Where is the magnet that I need to remove to check whether I have Luna or Bafang software? Are you referring to the rear wheel speed sensing magnet? I will run that test and let you know the results. Just got back from running that test. I did get an error code 21 immediately, so yes, I have 14.6 . I, as a customer and a consumer, like the 14.6. I would not own a 14.5 equipped bike. You, as a businessman and seller of a product, have the obligation to please your customers. Just in case you wonder, what dog does this guy (me) have in this fight, I will tell you. I recommended your product to a friend, and he bought it, to be disappointed. I have lost sleep over my recommendation. I hope that you are as concerned about the satisfaction of your customers.

[eskachig]

you have 14.6 which is the stock bafang software and it is our strong opinion this firmware is no good. it is choppy and not torque sensor like in the lower levels. We purposely tuned the bike down in the lower levels for people who wanted a real torque sensor feel. I think the luna custom firmware is much better than the stock bafang firmware for sure.

I honestly find 14.5 version of lower PAS essentially unusable in MTB situations, the assist simply never kicks in on climbs in low gear - but I'm hearing good things about those lower levels from people who have 14.4 or 14.6 firmware. If I don't have functional PAS 1 or 2 anyhow, I'd prefer to take a gamble on stock Bafang firmware, at least I'm hearing good things about it from other riders.

I bought the bike based on performance I saw from a bike that turned out to have 14.4 - performance that I cannot replicate on my own bike.

[Eric Luna]

We at luna have been selling bafang mid drives for a long time and usually the stock settings are not very good. The sad part about the new BEST system is it takes the power away from the dealers and the individual to customize their settings.... this is nothing new...most factory mid drives on production bikes do not allow firmware changes.

Anyway we do not feel the stock m600 has a good torque sensing feeling and has other problems the luna firmware setting fixed. to do this we had to fly an engineer out from bafang who was at our building for 3 days....so basically their are two versions of the firmware ...the one we got bafang to tweek for us (the luna firmware) and the original bafang firmware which had many problems i will detail in video.

I will do a youtube video soon that explains the differences between the bafang firmware (which we think is bad) and the luna firmware which we think is better and how we worked hard on it to improve. if after watching that video some of you still want to change to the bafang firmware we will soon have the tools available (the BEST programming tool ) so you will be able to flash the original bafang firmware on your drive. to make it clear you will not be able to change settings...you will just be able to choose which firmware you want .... lunas or bafangs.

But to make sure we are all on the same page....we did not send out many bikes with bafang firmware on them that i know of. If any did get sent out they were non ludicrous m600s. The numbers you guys are taking about firmware versions 14.5, 14,6 dont really mean much since even though the luna 14.5 is a custom luna firmware.....you cant tell the difference from the bafang 14.5 which is totally different. So if you guys who are having an issue could do me the favor and take the magnet off of your rear wheel and power the bike and see if the bike stops running and gives you an error. that will mean you have the bafang firmware. the luna firmware will not let the bike shut off after the magnet comes off the wheel.

the next thing...guys who are having a problem...can you verify you are really only getting 5 watts in level one? we have not seen this before and this could be a few isolated issues and then we will have to rethink this.... we are showing 50 watts in level one which is exactly around what we wanted. that would give ludicrous people 100 watts in level 1 which is about as much as you should want and still have that nice torque sensor feel when cruising on flat ground.

And the last question i have for people having problems is your bike ludicrous or not ludicrous.... for sure the luna program is better for ludicrous bikes because the bafang firmware is far too much power in lower levels for ludicrous...one thing we can do is offer discounted ludicrous upgrades to guys who have a big issue with not having enough power in level one or two. It is our opinion that the ludicrous bikes are not very rideabe with factory firmware because the bike literally wants to jump when you touch the pedals which can be dangerous....even in level one and two it does this. that is the other big point is we didnt want the luna firmware to have that jump in any level because we saw a lot of inadvertent crashes that way....we wanted the power to come on smoothly on all levels.

Anyway i wil do a complete video soon that will show what we did and why we did it and why we think our firmware is better than factory BEST firmware. we only had one chance to come up with our own program settings and we cant tweek them unfortunately and that is just the fault of bafang and the BEST system. its true the factory firmware feels more powerful in level one or two...choppy powerful.... also their are speed limits on every level...we took all of those off. also how our power ramps up is different..so it might take a bit to get up to power in lower levels...we did that so you wouldnt feel it as much...so again look at your watt meter while riding after pedaling in level 1 for at least 5 seconds..it should be 50 watts.

The last point is if you guys can sit tight we are working on a new sine wave controller for the m600 which will eliminate all of these problems and is far better than the bafang best stuff. ..will be much much more powerfulf and capable... and will be open source so everyone can alter their levels to the way of their choosing. ITs bad we cant customize our firmware settings to each of our likings but its just the cards we have been dealt. you can have a shimano steps, or a bosh drive or whatever and you dont get a throttle or high wattage..... so its just that their is not a product that can make everyone happy..not rigth now.

Give me a few days to make the youtube video please.

[eskachig]

I have accidentally done the magnet test - and my bike works without it, just reads out zero as speed, so I have the Luna firmware. I think that since Bafang dates their 14.6 firmware to Nov '19, most recent bikes with 14.5 would have the Luna version.

Mine is the non-Ludi (August shipment), and I think that most of the folks who aren't happy with low-PAS performance also have the standard version. It may well be that this is way less of an an issue on a Ludi bike, but my low PAS is so low that it's essentially unusable - and going from 4/9 to 5 is like having an engine switch on under you. But 5 can actually be a little too much for steep technical climbing in low gears, and at that point the bike is clearly doing most of the work. It's still fun though, this is a great bike.

I think the speed limits wouldn't bother me (and they don't seem to bother people with 14.4 or 14.6) in an MTB setting. I'd likely be gravity-powered in those circumstances anyhow. And on the road - well I didn't buy this bike to ride it on the road.

I think it would be lovely to have a choice to reflash to stock - it feels like there is not much to lose since I can't make use of low PAS as things stand anyway. But I'm in no rush, and I'm very much looking forward to your video - after all, I'm still having a great time tooling around in PAS 5/9. News of a new controller in the works are also very welcome. I know that people have become a bit frustrated over this issue, and I think you shedding some light on everything is very helpful. Above all, people are passionate because this bike totally rules.

[Buzzard68]

Eric, My bike is a non ludicrous, steel geared X-1. I did the magnet test, the drive stopped nearly immediately, giving an error code 21. So I assume it is a 14.6, as it says in the display info. I think the big problem is that no one, except me by coincidence, gets to try the different tunings out. And I mean not just Luna bikes, it would be nice to have bikes from several makers, to give them a try. The average person buys one bike from you, or another brand, and assumes it is just like all the others. I will say this once more. If my bike is a 14.6, which I am pretty sure it is, a 14.6 tuned bike is pretty damn nice. The 14.5 my friend has sucks. If I could stuff an M620 in my bike, I would love to try it. Ludicrous, nah, not interested. If better tunings come along, yeah, I'm interested. Then there are "improved" controllers coming along from WattWagon and so forth. I know we are breaking new ground on some of this, E Bikes and Bafang motors haven't been around forever, but Eric, you have to be open to results that we, your customers, are returning to you.

[Buzzard68]

Eric, I am sure this is frustrating to you. I have read what you have said carefully. The only logical answer to what is happening, and assuming your custom Luna tune was an upgrade from the Bafang tune, is that Bafang has modified both the Luna tune as well as their own, possibly wishing for Bafang to have the superior tuning. No proof, just that the Luna tuning is really not allowing PAS level 1 and 2 to put out power, except by throttle, while their own tune has become quite useable. Whether by mistake, or intent, that seems to be the case at this point.

[Eric Luna]

we have seen no real proof of this claim. 50 watts in level 1 under pedal assist and 100 watts in level 2 with the luna firmware...as it always has been. The Luna tune has not changed.

[kengps]

I have a non-ludi on my BABE. I can confirm it shows 2 watts while turned on, and 3 watts in PAS1 while riding. 1 watt net above background system power. PAS2 is good for 25-30 watts, and 125 or so if really standing on the pedals in a high gear or going uphill. I'd say a rider input of around 700-800 watts to get that 125 watts from the motor. In PAS3 it shows 740 watts peak. I'd guess maybe 400-500 watts rider input to get it.

[eskachig]

I too, can start seeing the sort of numbers Eric is mentioning at low PAS on my X1 - when I push a high gear at an unsustainable effort. And the millisecond your cadence slips, the assist goes away and it takes some sustained pedaling to get it back. It's a demoralizing double whammy lmao.

What's even stranger is that I'm seeing those numbers on the meter when I'm pedaling uphill in a low gear - but I'm not feeling any assist, it's absolutely brutal. I'm also hearing the motor making an unhealthy almost-grinding noise on every pedal stroke as it's trying to activate but just isn't getting enough juice. When I pedal along with the throttle in that setting, I'm seeing similar numbers on the display, but actually getting that assist and riding fine.

I think the display shows peak power in a time slice and isn't averaging it, I can't really explain the discrepancy there. I think what's happening is that the adjusted power curves, just don't suit this style of riding. It's not even that there isn't enough power (though there's also not enough power), but that power is very difficult to get to.

When I move up to 5/9 from 4/9, the power readings I'm seeing on the display only change a little bit, like a 100watt bump - but the character of the assist is completely night and day different - that power actually goes to the rear wheel. Ideally, I want 4/9 to work a lot like 5/9, just with less max juice.

[Buzzard68]

Eric, we are having a lack of communication. Many with the 14.5 Luna tune have near zero assist in levels 1 and 2. The bike is near useless until you go to level 3. This is a fact. I have ridden the bike. The Luna tune we got is not the tune you developed.

[SDebike]

I just bought a Ludicrous X-1 with the Luna 14.5 software just last week and have virtually no assist in PAS 1 & 2.
I can feel PAS level 3 immediately .
I would like to try the Bafang 14.6 software when you have flash option available .
Thanks for working on this issue.
I’m looking forward to the YouTube video...

[kengps]

They should not be selling these bikes with a known problem. Un-ethical.

[kengps]

Eric, You say 50 watts in level 1. That is only part of the story. At what level of Rider Support does that occur?? I cannot detect anything at level 1, probably because I'm not strong enough to get the 50 watts. At level 2, I see maybe 25-30 watts indicated with 100-150 watts rider input. And I see 125 watts indicated at probably 500-600 watts rider input. IOW about 25% rider support. In level 3, I see 400-450 watts or so indicated with 100-150 watts rider input. About 400 percent rider support. Just saying 50 watts, without saying what the rider support level is doesn't give the full picture. In level 1 and 2 I can say that the Rider Support is way too low. I can't make 400-500 watts for very long to get that 100-125 watts I'm seeing indicated. Maybe a 20-30 second sprint? So you need to follow up on the rider support levels in 1 and 2. They are way too low. Should not have to stand on the pedals to get that 100 watts.