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    IGH questions

    I am considering alternatives for the Shimano Nexus 8 IGH I currently pair with a Bafang BBS01 mid-drive on a converted Breezer Downtown with horizontal dropouts. I was contemplating either Enviolo cargo or Shimano Nexus Inter-5e. Both appear to be stronger and able to take mid-drive torque. Are there particular issues with mounting the Enviolo? I seem to recall reading elsewhere mentioned the action of shifting tends to pull on the hub which can loosen belt tension but my frame doesnt have a frame break to mount a belt and I dont want to use the Veer split belt so I would use a standard chain and sprocket. All advice much appreciated.
    Last edited by Dewey; 01-20-2022, 06:21 AM.

    #2
    What is wrong with the Nexus?

    Comment


      #3
      Nuvinci CVT is heavy, like really heavy compared to any IGH. Any less than 2.35" tires you may be susceptible to pinch flats like my buddy was getting on his 2.10" tires. He switched out for a SA HD 5S IGH and is using a BMX chain.
      .
      .
      NO AIRBAGS .... WE DIE LIKE REAL MEN

      Comment


        #4
        The Nexus 5 Ebike hub is all overdrive ratios. 1st gear is 1:1 for strength. This also works for 20" and smaller wheels. The hub is in the Sheldon Brown Gear Calculator.
        Be sure you can get a chainring and rear cog that will work for you. Remember smaller front cogs can screw up your chainline due to no inset.
        https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sheldon+br...t=brave&ia=web

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by calfee20 View Post
          What is wrong with the Nexus?
          Nexus 8 can't cope with any torque while shifting, but the pawls won't click into place without some forward pedalling, I have a gear sensor to cut power when shifting but even so I find myself feathering the ebrake to keep the power off while it takes its sweet time completing a gear change and between the crunching and slipping and losing forward momentum I can't trust it when I need to shift down going uphill on my commute home. I've enjoyed using the Enviolo hub on Capital Bikeshare ebikes so am leaning toward that but was wondering if there were any commonly reported installation issues or problems.
          Last edited by Dewey; 01-20-2022, 10:40 AM.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Retrorockit View Post
            The Nexus 5 Ebike hub is all overdrive ratios...Be sure you can get a chainring and rear cog that will work for you.
            Yes I currently have a 4-bolt adapter and 42t 104bcd Luna chainring, so I might need to look into getting a smaller front ring plus larger rear sprocket to gear it down for hill climbing if I went with the Inter 5e, Shimano say it's 2.5-3 times stronger than their Nexus 8 so was wondering if anyone here recommended it.
            Last edited by Dewey; 01-20-2022, 10:41 AM.

            Comment


            • Retrorockit
              Retrorockit commented
              Editing a comment
              The Shimano 5E has 6 drive ears instead of 3 and some larger rear cogs to make up for the OD ratios.

            #7
            Im thinking about this swap too. I’m currently running alfine 8, 22t rear with 60t up front (custom) all with carbon gates belt on 20” wheels but thinking about going Inter-5 IGH for more durability. I have a 50t and 55t front sprocket I could mate into my set up. Haven’t calculated the numbers yet to see where it all falls. just keeping my eye out for a cheap inter-5 to keep as back up. I think inter 5 and alfine8 have same belt line offsets.

            im also about to swap in High voltage bac 855 and 72v. Let’s see how long this alfine 8 will last (I ride pretty conservative and smooth but I still rip it)

            it’s a bike Friday Haul a Day cargo bike. I like the ratios for the cargo bike. Important to me to be able to peddle back home if battery dies.

            last picture is how she sits right now

            Comment


              #8
              I have a fistful of Nexus and Alfine 8 builds - here's some general thoughts on them, as well as the Inter-5 and the Enviolo.

              IMHO, if treated nicely (allowed to complete shifts under no or very little power AND the shifter alignment monitored), in my experience Nexus / Alfine 8 hubs can withstand a LOT of power (upwards of a Ludacris X2 BBSHD on one bike). I've had no hub failures. YMMV.

              If your Nexus 8 is slipping or crunching behind a 250-350 watt BBS01, it may be most cost effective to buy a guts pack off of eBay ($100-$150ish) and swap it. While the new one is underway, clean and relub the original one in ATF fluid. The grease lubrication doesn't last forever and is troublesome in cold weather. Guts packs are also available for the Alfine, and may be Shimano's IGH hub repair philosophy.

              I'm not keen on the idea of a BBS motor and Shimano Nexus Inter-5e combo on anything other than a 20" or smaller wheeled bike, because of the gearing and chain line issues Retro mentioned. Throw in sprocket availability / choices (3) into the mix, remembering that the Inter-5e does not use the same style sprocket as the very common old-school Sturmey Archer / Shimano ones. And, I'll throw in the opinion that it's probably best to have your 1:1 ratio your most commonly used riding gear (for strength and efficiency) - the same complaint I'd have against the Shimano Alfine 11 speed.

              That Enviolo cargo hub looks pretty sweet, has a pretty good spread of (proprietary) sprockets, and possibly doesn't require a shift sensor - but I'd add one anyway on the "upshift" cable (of the two).

              If I had horizontal dropouts and was concerned about axle slippage, I'd look towards BMX-style tensioners or maybe the Surly Tugnuts.

              P.S. Nice job bruised on your Bike Friday Haul a Day - what width tires can be crammed into that frame?
              Last edited by ncmired; 01-20-2022, 12:56 PM.
              BBSHD / BBS02 IGH Builds: Nexus / Alfine 8: 1 2 3 4 5 6, Rohloff: 1

              Comment


              • ncmired
                ncmired commented
                Editing a comment
                I just remembered one weakness of the Shimano IGH hubs - actually not an uncommon problem with axle nuts on any axle with flats.

                Flatted axles are more prone to rip out the axle nut threads, especially if the axle nut metal is on the soft side (the Shimano chromed nuts come to mind). I suggest replacement of these nuts (if not replacement, at least inspection) after a few tightening sessions, and don't go crazy on the tightness.

                Also, if you have thick dropouts you may short-shrift the thread engagement, not easy to visually judge with the closed-end nuts.

                The axle thread is 3/8" X 26TPI, and is not the same as the nice (10mm) Campi track nuts so they can't be substituted.

                Fortunately the Shimano axle metal is quite hard, and holds up pretty well.

                The Rohloff axles don't have flats, and don't rely on antirotation washers - another thing they do right.
                Last edited by ncmired; 01-20-2022, 05:14 PM.

              #9
              Thanks! It was more work than I initially thought. Almost gave up a couple of times. I have this spare 20x4 rim tire combo (from occ stingray). Might be too wide but haven’t confirmed. But after I get my hands on another IGH, I will lace up the widest wheel/tire possible. Will be good for the 72v I think

              Comment


                #10
                Originally posted by ncmired View Post
                If I had horizontal dropouts and was concerned about axle slippage, I'd look towards BMX-style tensioners or maybe the Surly Tugnuts?
                Thank you! My Breezer Downtown has forward facing semi-horizontal dropouts and the Surly Tugnuts or the Surly Hurdy Gurdy chain tensioner look like what I would need.
                Last edited by Dewey; 01-20-2022, 07:30 PM.

                Comment


                  #11
                  Originally posted by ncmired View Post
                  Enviolo cargo hub...possibly doesn't require a shift sensor - but I'd add one anyway on the "upshift" cable (of the two).
                  I sent an email to Evelo and Workcycles, both of whom assemble ebikes that pair an Enviolo hub with Bafang or Dapu mid-drive motors, to ask their opinion about using a gearsensor with an Enviolo hub.

                  Evelo responded: "We don't use a gearsensor with the CVT. The way they work, there is a bit of lag between cable movement and the motor shutting off. The CVT reacts instantly to cable movement, unlike most hubs, so it just doesn't help in this case. It can be difficult to upshift under load because the CVT locks itself in high torque situations. You get used to it pretty quickly."

                  Workcycles responded “The Enviolo hub is designed to handle the increased chain torque that a mid motor creates. You won’t need a gear sensor with the Enviolo. ” So presumably that means they don’t fit a gear sensor to the FR8 MAD models.

                  I think instead of a gearsensor I may fit the big green button kill switch in case I feel the need to cut power while upshifting. It may not be an issue provided I pause pedalling while shifting, and take it to the shop for regular servicing of the bike to include checking/adjusting the shifter and hub interface.
                  Last edited by Dewey; 01-28-2022, 06:46 PM.

                  Comment


                    #12
                    You can always feather the throttle when shifting. But in higher assist leve with a BBSHD you would have to actually stop pedalling to cut the power.

                    Comment


                      #13
                      The shop completed the conversion.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      Comment


                        #14
                        Did you ever consider the Kindernay VII?

                        Comment


                        • 73Eldo
                          73Eldo commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I forgot about those. That's the one where you can fairly easily swap the main expensive internal part into different wheels?

                        • scrambler
                          scrambler commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Yes.
                          A very strong hub, right amount of range and gears for e-bikes, hydraulic shifter and swap cages.
                          https://kindernay.com/product/kindernay-vii/

                        • ncmired
                          ncmired commented
                          Editing a comment
                          And 135/142/148 thru axle, which opens up use on many newer frames.

                          True thru-axle - not the hoaky Rohloff spacer mess.
                          Last edited by ncmired; 02-26-2022, 02:01 PM.

                        #15
                        Originally posted by scrambler View Post
                        Did you ever consider the Kindernay VII?
                        Looks like Watt Wagons has jumped on the Kindernay VII for their upcoming Helios bike.
                        Last edited by ncmired; 02-26-2022, 01:04 PM.
                        BBSHD / BBS02 IGH Builds: Nexus / Alfine 8: 1 2 3 4 5 6, Rohloff: 1

                        Comment


                        • ncmired
                          ncmired commented
                          Editing a comment
                          $999 Euro or U.S.?

                          But congrats, anyway - what bike/frame are you planning on setting it up on?
                          Last edited by ncmired; 02-26-2022, 01:57 PM.

                        • scrambler
                          scrambler commented
                          Editing a comment
                          OOPS
                          Euros indeed :)
                          I will be putting that on a Boxxbike Valkyrie :)

                        • ncmired
                          ncmired commented
                          Editing a comment
                          A Valkyrie? Oh boy! A rugged mp3-driven speaker playing "Ride of the Valkyries" may be in order.
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