Bottom bracket. Hmm, what is the bike shop up to?

[robbie_d]

Hi,
Sorry for this long post. I am in a bit of a situation.

Lots of bad issues going on with my local Chinese ebike dealer. I bought my ebike second-hand from my neighbor. I have major regrets now because of how i am treated by the store owner.

The latest episode is when my bottom bracket wore out after two and a half years of daily usage.
I asked how much to replace it while in the store and the (Chinese) boss' White girlfriend checked her phone and told me it was (Canadian) 28 dollars for the bottom bracket for my ebike.
The mechanic mentioned to her that he might need one extra hour alone to scrape away the rust, and then the regular service time (one hour) to remove and re-install the new bottom bracket.

Before i went there. i asked if they could change it while i was there to avoid me waiting at home. They agreed.
When i got there, the mechanic showed me how a new bottom bracket looked. When he showed me how my peddles were wobbling back and forth, he said it's the bottom bracket that needs to be replaced.
When i saw the bottom bracket that she showed me, i asked, knowing a bit about bikes, "What if the trouble is just the ball bearings need replacing? Why replace the whole bracket if all the piece needs are new ball bearings?"
He said has to see the inside first.
I said, "Ok then let's see inside, let's take it apart. and we'll see."

His facial expression was initially negative as if he didn't want to do it in front of me, but he agreed. So the bike was attached to the bike holder and he removed the crank and the chain sprocket pieces, so all we saw were the holes where he attached a rachet and an attachment that fits into the hole to remove the inside "nuts" between the peddles inside the frame.

With the bike still on the stand, he attached the rachet inside the hole on the side of the bike where the gear sprockets are, and with his hand near the back wheel, he began pushing the "rachet bar" down toward the floor.

The bike was moving on the stand so much. that i suggested that he set the tires on the floor and retry as i hold the bike for him. He agreed and we tried again, he was still pushing the rachet bar toward the floor from above the rachet bar as his hand was beside the back wheel on the side of the bike where the gear sprockets are located. It didn't come loose.

So i suggested that we lean the bike against something so i can sit on the bike. I suggested that i could push the rachet bar down, with my foot beside the back wheel on the same side as the gear sprockets, as he held the piece in the hole with his hand. He agreed and it didn't work.

So i then suggested that we lay the bike on its side on the floor to apply more pressure from above as he turned the rachet. It didn't work.

I kept suggesting things because he kept acting like it was not possible to get it off - as if he had no idea what to do. He looked (or acted) confused. He kept shrugging his shoulders and showing his palms to the ceiling and shaking his head, and asking me what i would do. He said he's never seen this before, It was the first time.
Nothing worked, we tried for an hour and a half.

So i left, after he said, "don't worry we'll get it off."

The next day (Friday Jan 17, 2023) they contacted me by email to tell me the bike is now ready and the price for parts and labor.
The bottom bracket is now $50.00, with two hours of labor ($65.00 per hour) totaling $180.00. Plus tax, it's $207.00.

I passed by Saturday afternoon but the shop was closed for business but the door was open. So i went in and one Chinese guy was there working on electronics. I saw my bike and walked to it and looked inside the plastic bag of old parts i had asked to see.
All i saw in the bag were mangled nuts from inside the peddles area, something that looks like an aluminum tube that appears crushed on one side which is about the same length as the rusted "axle". I gently poured the contents of the bag onto a surface and let the one employee, there, see what was in the bag.
I did not see my old bottom bracket among the pieces from my bike and i asked him if he knows about this repair job. Well, he didn't understand a word of English. I didn't even try speaking French figuring he has just recently arrived from China to work in the repair shop. That's a normal thing.

So i wrote an email to the girlfriend again and i asked why the bracket is almost double in price now. She said in her email that she made a mistake in her other email when she told me the price because she quoted the price for a "regular" bike's bottom bracket - not for my model of ebike.

I mentioned to her that. "i asked my local bike service shop about prices for bottom brackets and he told me for a bike like mine, it's usually around $30-$35 unless it's a special bottom bracket which would be more expensive."
Then i asked her "Do you sell "regular" bikes"... to which she said in her response email, "what i meant by 'regular bike' was our other model of ebike, not your model of ebike."
I thought that was really silly of her to say. So i feel really suspicious.

But during that same email exchange on Saturday, she was nice enough to write that she will send me photos of the two different ebike parts, on Mon. 31 Jan. 2023.

Then i get an email from her on Monday telling me that she will not send photos but she will show me the two bottom brackets in the store when i come to collect and pay for the work done. I am wondering when i go there and pull out a camera if they will allow me to take photos of my bottom bracket model, and, i am even wondering if they will agree to show me the bottom bracket for the "regular" bike she mentioned to me by "mistake".
I hope when i get there, they don't say there are no more bottom brackets in stock or at the shop to show me. So that i can't see the cheaper but overpriced bottom bracket in my bike? I dunno.

I responded by telling her that i am not able to go out because there is a plumbing problem in my kitchen (which is 100% true) and that my landlord said it will be handled within 7 days and he doesn't give a time because he hires someone and they come when they come - and that's between 8 am to like 10 pm.

I told her that i really need to know the part number, company name, and model number etc, whatever i would need, in order to identify the model of the bottom bracket that my ebike requires - and was installed in my ebike.
I told her, "as a cyclist, i really should know what's in my bike for my own personal knowledge."
I kindly requested that she take a minute or two when she has time to send me the photos she said she would send to me. I mentioned that i would like to see the brand name, model number, whatever identification there is, to show in the photos. I said i am very interested in learning about bottom brackets now.

There's been no response from her since my last polite email.


What would any of you do if they refused to let you take photos of the two different bottom brackets, one of which was installed into your ebike?

Keep in mind that the owner recently denied to MY face that there were three spacers on my 2019-made bike's rear axle when i KNOW there were three spacers on my rear axle.
I changed my tire seasonally, fixed flats and i changed the brake pads and brake fluid, and i even replaced a broken spoke myself for over two years. I saw the three spacers MANY times. He angrily flipped over one of his 2023 models of the same ebike i have, in the shop, to PROVE to me that there are only TWO spacers on the (newer) bikes. He actually reprimanded me rudely as if i was stupid for seeing three spacers for two-and-a-half years.

He scolded me and asked me "WHO OWNS THIS COMPANY?"
I said you do.
He said, "Don't you think i know how my bikes are made?"
I said, "You don't seem to remember the older design of my older bike that YOUR company sold in 2019 - 2020, The design must have changed to now use TWO spacers. MY bike HAD three spacers - i was so afraid of losing one of them whenever i changed brake pads etc. Now you are telling me i can't believe what i saw for over two years?"
He basically kept repeating that the bike has ALWAYS had two rear axle spacers. This guy argues with his clients about everything. He even accused me of adding another spacer, myself. Can you believe that? He accused me of tampering with the safety of my bike by adding a spacer that should not be there.

And i think the serviceman let me work beside him so long as he didn't do it right or something because i think they don't want to show me what's inside - they used some power tool as soon as l left, to remove the inside of the bottom bracket area.
I saw a few youtube videos where a serviceman turned the rachet in the OTHER direction on that side of the bike to remove the insides there.
Did that joker make me waste two hours of my time as he basically acted as if i was in control of the repair job and he turned the rachet in the wrong direction so it would not open so i couldn't see inside?
Is that his way of making me think the job was impossible - only to rip it out in no time with a power tool when i left? He didn't need any time to scrape rust off of the part if he gave me the rusted axle in the plastic bag.
Why would he need an hour to scrap off rust? Seems to me the job was done in an hour and i'm getting charged for two hours (false labor) and i'm paying double for the bracket, too.

I wonder if in a year or two from now if they damaged the frame with the power tool, and i need a new piece, will he then accuse me: "You tried to do it yourself and you ruined it. It's not my fault!"

Geez.
What do i do?

Thanks,

[robbie_d]

If i get more in-my-face attitude from them because i want to know, should i take my ebike to another store and pay someone to look inside and tell me what part is there and how much it should cost AND while i'm there, should i ask to see if there was damage done to the bottom bracket area by the power tool? What if the bracket is not worth $50.00 and there is damage to the frame?
This guy will probably accuse me of changing that part with a cheaper bottom bracket and damaging the frame and having the nerve to blame him.

[73Eldo]

Even big brand bikes especially in the last couple years could be different batch to batch when it comes to smaller things like those spacers. You make that a no name brand Chinese bike you would be lucky to get them the same thing within the same batch. The spacer thing is likely what they do to match the hub motor to the frame. Rather than actually sourcing the exact parts and making the frame to fit the parts they have they just use the spacers. They just buy/make say 130mm which is the narrowest common width and add spacers to fit so if its 135 frame 5mm of spacer, 141 11 mm of spacer. So I really don't make anything of that other than maybe the shop should have expected anything to be possible.

As for the bottom bracket I would expect a cheapish Chinese E bike to have a BSA type threaded bottom bracket. Most likely the 80's style where each side is a threaded cup and then its got a caged bearing on each side. Some of them have a sleeve that goes between the sides that is supposed to somewhat act as a shield so that could be the metal thing you were seeing in the parts bag. A quick look about $20 seems reasonable for the complete assembly including the shaft. You can pretty much go up from there cost wise. $50 certainly gives you more options including what I assume are copies of higher ends stuff that uses sealed cartridge bearings. There are anomalies out there like a supposedly genuine Shimano sealed assembly for $18. I have my doubts about that being a genuine part for that price, last time I looked you could buy a single Shimano branded bearing for $18. These prices are USD which looks like as of today =$1.33 CA so what I saw for $20 could have been their original estimate of $28.

If your bottom bracket was loose enough that you could see and feel it in the pedals I would expect everything to be damaged beyond just needing an adjustment or bearings. For a daily year round commuter especially in a freezing climate 2 years seems like a pretty good run to me. BSA bottom brackets and most others that are threaded both sides the thread is such that as you pedal it would be tightening things. Back pedal would loosen. This means that the left side is normal thread and the gear side is reverse. The all weather / freezing climate commuters I know pretty much take things apart like a bottom bracket for inspection at least a couple times a year. Its part to inspect and grease things and the rest is just to make sure thing are not just rusted in which is a big problem with a bike that gets wet and a huge problem if there is any hit of salt involved.

So if we are talking about a winter commuter bike that hasn't been apart in 2 years I think 2 hours is reasonable amount of time to get it apart and get a new one fitted. If its an aluminum frame that would be worse than steel. Aluminum corrodes way worse than steel especially when mixed with other metals and exposed to moisture and salt.

Now if they told you it was going to be a $28 part and would be done while you wait $200 seems a little high without telling you, half that seems more like it because I would not expect to have to wait more than an hour.

[Retrorockit]

One side of the BB has LH threads. I wonder if the extra labor was for time spent turning it the wrong way?

[robbie_d]

A quick look about $20 seems reasonable for the complete assembly including the shaft. You can pretty much go up from there cost wise. $50 certainly gives you more options including what I assume are copies of higher ends stuff that uses sealed cartridge bearings. There are anomalies out there like a supposedly genuine Shimano sealed assembly for $18. I have my doubts about that being a genuine part for that price, last time I looked you could buy a single Shimano branded bearing for $18. These prices are USD which looks like as of today =$1.33 CA so what I saw for $20 could have been their original estimate of $28.

What they showed me in the shop (for $28 then later for sold $50) was a black cylinder with chrome-looking ends that stuck out from each end. I wonder if they installed the black one and not the same kind they removed with the chrome-colored shaft like you described. This will have to be done again, eventually, and i get the impression that if they gave me a cheaper one after showing me the more expensive black one, they will probably deny installing the cheaper one themselves and choose to accuse me of installing a cheaper one and doing a bad job at it. I can't believe how this guy talks to me. I think they are hoping i'll forget about this and in two years they can gaslight me again. When the owner yells at you for bringing your bike in, you don't want to go back. They make me feel suspicious of them.

If your bottom bracket was loose enough that you could see and feel it in the pedals I would expect everything to be damaged beyond just needing an adjustment or bearings. For a daily year round commuter especially in a freezing climate 2 years seems like a pretty good run to me. BSA bottom brackets and most others that are threaded both sides the thread is such that as you pedal it would be tightening things. Back pedal would loosen. This means that the left side is normal thread and the gear side is reverse. The all weather / freezing climate commuters I know pretty much take things apart like a bottom bracket for inspection at least a couple times a year. Its part to inspect and grease things and the rest is just to make sure thing are not just rusted in which is a big problem with a bike that gets wet and a huge problem if there is any hit of salt involved.

Yea, i ride all year round no matter what the temperature is. I just remember my regular Trek mountain bikes lasting much longer with the same use. E-bikes seem inferior in that way. There must be a way to place a rubber "cap" over that part that connects to the frame where the peddles are to protect it from the elements? The axle would have to go through the cap...shrink wrap?

I will have to buy the parts needed to do this job myself and save on the labor fees.

Now if they told you it was going to be a $28 part and would be done while you wait $200 seems a little high without telling you, half that seems more like it because I would not expect to have to wait more than an hour.

From my experience, if a client walks into almost any bike shop and wants them to stop their workflow just to repair his bike while he waits without an appointment, they don't like that. So, i felt lucky that they said yes to me asking for that. I will say that was good about them.

[73Eldo]

You didn't say how much your E bike cost but my guess is any Trek would likely be a way higher quality bike than most E bikes. The E parts on a lower end E bike are gonna cost at least $750 so on a $1000 E bike that leaves you with only $250 for the rest of the bike and that is about as cheap as you can possibly go. A low end Trek I think is going to be at least $500 now days and really no comparison on any level with the regular bike part of the E bike. Even if its a $1500 e bike where did that extra $500 go? From what I have seen very little of that goes into the bike parts. If you are lucky its a little more power in the motor and a little better battery but more often than not its stupid stuff that doesn't really add real value or utility. From what I have seen you got to get into the $3k range for an E bike before you are getting a much better base bike along with better E stuff.

Its possible that your BB isn't something common based on a BSA thread type. There are other less common standards and you never know these days maybe someone screwed up and made frames that didn't really match any standard but instead of waste them they kinda made their own bottom bracket so they could still sell the frames. Maybe they were trying to copy some high end frame that used an expensive BB so they also made a cheap BB to fit it.

Its hard to tell what BB they were showing you or selling you. These days there are plenty of copies of high end stuff as well as counterfeit ones. There are some that are better sealed than others I just have not really researched it lately to make a recommendation. I just looked at a online supplier I often use and Shimano UN300 bottom bracket assembly for $16. Its got a black center and silver ends so that could have been it. It says it has cartridge bearings which in theory is better than the older caged type. It also says its part of the Tourney line which is pretty much rock bottom of Shimano so it seems you can get a genuine Shimano BB for under $20. I think the problem is the square tapper is now only low end bikes, medium and high end uses a hollow spline axle.

[pbreezy]

For fifty dollars you can get a basic but pretty comprehensive bicycle tool kit from SpinDoctor, and you can look up just about any bicycle issue on Sheldonbrown.com (RIP King) for free.
You can’t always do a better job than a good mechanic, but you’ll almost always care more about the work you put in to your own bike than a hired mechanic will.

[Retrorockit]

I don't have ISIS and I don't have external. I have Shimano Octalink 2 internal splined BB, and I have the socket. No need for the other 90% ones.

[pbreezy]

Octalink and ISIS use the same tool. You already have it.

[Retrorockit]

I've never seen an ISIS so dIidn;t know that.

[robbie_d]

You didn't say how much your E bike cost

Hi,
Thanks. I paid Canadian $2500.00 for my Ebike. While my bike is in the shop, i am riding a Trek mountain bike

[73Eldo]

@2500 I would expect some decent components, not great but you should not be stuck with the absolute bottom of the line stuff many other ebikes get.

[robbie_d]

And always research your repairman. So you are more sure that you will be treated like a customer.

I asked my local bike dealer (not the bike vendor) if he knows how to change the oil and gasket in my front shocks and he told me that he doesn't want to touch the handlebars/forks on my ebike because he doesn't quite understand the design on sight. So for that job, i'll have to see my arrogant ebike dealer. I asked him once how much to replace the gasket in one of my front shocks because it's leaking a bit of oil.
He said they don't do that. They want to sell me new forks for $150. plus installation which i think will be another 2 hours labor (even if it's one hour).
Thanks

[robbie_d]

For fifty dollars you can get a basic but pretty comprehensive bicycle tool kit from SpinDoctor, and you can look up just about any bicycle issue on Sheldonbrown.com (RIP King) for free.
You can’t always do a better job than a good mechanic, but you’ll almost always care more about the work you put into your own bike than a hired mechanic will.

Hi,
Agreed.
I will buy the tools to do the job, myself, in the future. Much less expensive.
I am just wondering if the bottom bracket for my ebike is available anywhere or is it a special bracket only they make and sell. They don't seem to want to email me the model number or company brand name of the bracket they installed. I am suspicious, now. First, it was a $28 verbally, then it was $50 when i got billed. I want to know exactly what they installed and they are acting weird with me.

I will contact Quebec's consumer protection service to see what they think is going on and how i should proceed. I checked my dealer's reputation with the Consumer Protection's website and there are 7 entries listed meaning there are 7 complaints so far.

Thanks

[pbreezy]

Without seeing it it’s hard to say, but if it’s a cartridge style that threads in backwards on the right side I’m like 95% that is 68mm English (aka BSA) which is super common. The more important part is the spindle that the cranks bolt onto. Do you know the make and model of the bike? Lots of times a spec sheet can be found for modern bikes.

[Retrorockit]

68mm was the standard width for years. But Trek went to 73mm so that's a common size also. Other use it too. It's easy enough to measure this on the bike.
A markup on parts is considered normal in auto repair. Dealers usually will charge full price to DIY customers. Parts stores will usually give a discount because they welcome the business. I could get a better price from the dealer by wearing my mechanics uniform than if I went in my street clothes.

[robbie_d]

I picked up my ebike today from the service shop.

The bill says, Bottom bracket $65.00 -$15 discount = $50.00.

BUT when i asked for the model number and company they didn't know BECAUSE they said they had to take a bottom bracket from another ebike like mine in the shop. They could have taken a photo like they said they would do, but, nope.
It's hidden inside my bike.
He told me he's never ordered any spares. My bike is the first one that needed a new bottom bracket.

I am wondering how he decided to charge me $65.00 for a part he's never sold before and has no idea of the model number or brand name or the price.

He said he will contact me next week to tell me what the model number etc is.
I think they are so dishonest.
I don't like how he took off $15.00 on a part that probably costs $28.00 and sold to me for $50.00.

[Retrorockit]

The only real way to know what it costs is to buy it yourself. Remember that having one in China, and having one locally waiting for your unpredictable convenience is not the $ame thing. I f he did pull one off of another bike for you then he did 2x labor. If he had to order another for that bike then he would know the cost. Obviously you don't trust him. I can't say if you're right or wrong. But the solution would be to buy the tools and do your own work as much as possible.
But if you find yourself waiting for a part from China for a month (it'sChinese New Year now, make that 2 months) to save $20 and no bike to ride, maybe you will see things differently.

[robbie_d]

When they verbally told me the price, it was $28.00. Then, they send me an email saying $50.00. When i finally got the invoice, only after paying, it said $65.00 - $15.00.
At the bottom of the receipt, it says "You saved $15.00." Did i?

They said they had to remove a bottom bracket from one of the bikes (like mine) on the showroom floor to install in my bike because they never had to replace one and they don't keep them in the stock room.

Seems odd they have a price handy for a part they don't keep in stock, and they "don't know" the brand name, the model number, or even have a photo.
They showed me brackets for other ebikes they sell and said, "Your's is something like this one."
They won't show me my bracket, but they show me a price. Suspicious behavior.

[robbie_d]

The only real way to know what it costs is to buy it yourself. Remember that having one in China, and having one locally waiting for your unpredictable convenience is not the $ame thing. I f he did pull one off of another bike for you then he did 2x labor. If he had to order another for that bike then he would know the cost. Obviously you don't trust him. I can't say if you're right or wrong. But the solution would be to buy the tools and do your own work as much as possible.
But if you find yourself waiting for a part from China for a month (it's Chinese New Year now, make that 2 months) to save $20 and no bike to ride, maybe you will see things differently.

I've asked my local bike dealer to inspect the job that was done. He'll tell me what is in there and what it's worth. I'll take photos in the shop so my vendor can't say, "You did it yourself and you changed the part for a cheaper one."
I can't order and buy another one until i find out what model etc it is. I could buy another one that's worth what it's really worth, or i wait and have the dealer charge what he wants for the next "invisible" part.

[Retrorockit]

As a DIY guy, and professional mechanic I've seen both sides of this. Perhaps the problem is you think this should be a warranty issue? Markup on parts is a normal part of that business. To "discount" the part because it was previously installed seems reasonable.
My advice is to get the experience of doing it yourself. Then you will know what it costs in time tools and labor to do that job.Then add in the overhead of running a business so you can be there to take care of these things for customers and earn some kind of decent living. Who knows maybe you will find this an irresistible way to make lot's of money? LOL
The other option is to have another shop work on your bike. I'n sure they'll be glad to give you parts at their cost, and do 2x the labor ( Oh wait it's 3x now). If they don't have the parts for it that's the chance you take. Maybe you could pay them to take your bike completely apart and make a list of every part it's made of. Then they could give it back to you in a box until you pay them to put it back together.
A BB repair that's been exposed to road salt and water can be a real PITA. That' also the most likely thing to make one fail. Judging by where you are and the timing of this question could this be what happened?

[73Eldo]

If all or most of their bikes are in that $2500 range and they are a decent dealer/shop and check that the bikes are properly set up before they are sold I could easily see that they have not had to sell or replace a bottom bracket on one of their bikes. I would guess 90% of their customers may only ride maybe once per week and only fair weather which isn't going to wear out even a cheap bottom bracket that was properly lubricated and set up. The commuters I know do much of their maintenance themselves likely because it has to be done so often so that could be another 9% leaving just 1% of their customers that really put some miles on.

Them taking one off a new bike sounds like something no shop I know would have done unless it was a warranty thing and you were a really good customer. Another question is does this bottom bracket have any sort of torque or cadence sensor built in? If so that is a whole other level of oddity that has to be dealt with and would not be something carried by normal bicycle parts people.

You say they told you the part was going to cost $50 instead of the original $28? Did you approve that or did they just do it? If you approved it I really don't see what the issue is. If you didn't that isn't great but it seems like they went though extra effort to get it fixed fairly quickly for you. The could have said we don't have the part and factory is on vacation so we can't get the number or price for a few weeks and then we will have to wait weeks to months to get the part and pay expedited shipping rather than wait months for a container.

[Retrorockit]

During Chinese New Year they don't expedite anything.$28 +$12 shipping from Hong Kong that's what I used to pay for my Rapid Rise shifters back when they were actually available there. Now it's $29 shipping form UK. Only worth it if I buy 3 at a time.
LMAO. You complain about how much they charged you to fix your bike. Now you're paying someone else to tear it apart.