Using throttle and PAS at the same time

[jaaklucas]

So Im new to mid drive. Had a throttle only hub drive for 5 years. My BBSHD has the dreaded no simultaneous throttle with PAS problem. Can someone guide me to the fix? Im not ruling out throttle only if I could still use the wheel sensor for the diplay stats. Ive seen the grey wire cut or splice and read theres a firmware flash as well.

[73Eldo]

Do you have a programming cable?

[jaaklucas]

Do you have a programming cable?

Yes. Ive gone into all the usual software fixes I think. Throttle works fine in all settings on its own including PAS 0 after changing settings that I found reccomended. As soon as I pedal in any PAS throttle cuts out or wigs out. I think my newer BBSHD doesnt allow using both Throttle and PAS from what Ive read,only one or the other...

[73Eldo]

Then its the firmware that is stopping you. There are other versions floating around but I don't know which ones allow it and which don't. Maybe someone else will know. Note that its possible if something goes wrong during the firmware update you could brick the controller so consider that possibility before you start the process.

[AZguy]

So Im new to mid drive. Had a throttle only hub drive for 5 years. My BBSHD has the dreaded no simultaneous throttle with PAS problem. Can someone guide me to the fix? Im not ruling out throttle only if I could still use the wheel sensor for the diplay stats. Ive seen the grey wire cut or splice and read theres a firmware flash as well.

Yes - there are four options and firmware is one option that can fix but has some risks



If you are ok with throttle only a second option is a parameter set that will do the job even with the flawed firmware and of course since it's just parameters you can always return it back:

Set assist 0 to 100% current and 0% speed

Set throttle designated assist level and speed limit to "By Display's Command"


Set the PAS level(s) you intend to use to appropriate maximum - when I did this I set the display to only have three levels and set the three levels to all have sped at 100% and then had the first level at 50% current, the second at 71% and the third at 100% - this is entirely optional, when I first did this I just set all levels (aside from 0) to 100/100 which is the simplest and works fine

Set the throttle mode and start current the way you like - for me I set it to "current" mode and 1% start current



A third option is to cut or remove the gray wire from the PAS connector and this will also create a throttle only operation and is also reversible but the parameter change does the same thing and you don't need to open the controller



After some time like this I did the fourth option which is an electrical mod (this was several years ago) and it works very similar to the unit with proper firmware - the good firmware wasn't "in the wild" at that time so it was the only practical option at the time and I've left it that way since

You connect the circuit to the throttle signal and the "gray" wire (pedal cadence sense) so that when it senses throttle it suppresses the gray wire signal:

[jaaklucas]

If you are ok with throttle only a second option is a parameter set that will do the job even with the flawed firmware and of course since it's just parameters you can always return it back:
Set assist 0 to 100% current and 0% speed
Set throttle designated assist level and speed limit to "By Display's Command"

Thanks for getting back. When you say throttle ONLY do you mean something I could pedal along with at Pedal Assist 0? Id be happy with that. I tried thePedal Assist 0 , current 1% speed 1% / Throttle designated assist level at 9 which is the common fix for getting the throttling but if I pedal along with the throttle at Pedal Assist 0 it acts up as in power drop,etc.

[AZguy]

I think we're talking the same thing

Essentially pedaling alone applies no power and the throttle controls power regardless of pedaling or not - the parameter I described (PAS 0 at 100% current / 0% speed, etc. will do this)

I ran this way for a fair while until I did the little circuit which for me at least brought a more "cruise control" use for PAS operation when just tooling along the multi-use trails.... outside that I tend to just use the bike with the throttle while pedaling for quick instant control of the amount of assist so losing the PAS operation wasn't a big deal...

[11111energy]

If your BBSHD has the "no simultaneous throttle with PAS" issue, there are a few potential solutions you could try:

1. Cut or splice the grey wire: This is a common fix for the BBSHD throttle/PAS issue. The grey wire controls the signal that tells the motor controller to disable the throttle when the PAS sensor detects pedaling. By cutting or splicing this wire, you can disable that signal and allow the throttle and PAS to work simultaneously. However, keep in mind that this may be technically illegal in some areas, and could also potentially void your warranty.
2. Firmware flash: Some users have reported success with updating the firmware on their BBSHD to allow for simultaneous throttle and PAS. However, this is a more advanced solution that may require some technical know-how.
3. Throttle-only: If you're not able to fix the throttle/PAS issue, or if you prefer to use a throttle-only system, you could consider disconnecting the PAS sensor and using only the throttle. In this case, you may still be able to use the wheel sensor for display stats, depending on your specific setup.

It's worth noting that using throttle-only mode can be less efficient and potentially less safe than using a PAS system, as it requires more input from the rider to regulate speed and power. However, it may still be a viable option depending on your preferences and needs.

[jaaklucas]

If your BBSHD has the "no simultaneous throttle with PAS" issue, there are a few potential solutions you could try:

1. Cut or splice the grey wire: This is a common fix for the BBSHD throttle/PAS issue. The grey wire controls the signal that tells the motor controller to disable the throttle when the PAS sensor detects pedaling. By cutting or splicing this wire, you can disable that signal and allow the throttle and PAS to work simultaneously. However, keep in mind that this may be technically illegal in some areas, and could also potentially void your warranty.
2. Firmware flash: Some users have reported success with updating the firmware on their BBSHD to allow for simultaneous throttle and PAS. However, this is a more advanced solution that may require some technical know-how.
3. Throttle-only: If you're not able to fix the throttle/PAS issue, or if you prefer to use a throttle-only system, you could consider disconnecting the PAS sensor and using only the throttle. In this case, you may still be able to use the wheel sensor for display stats, depending on your specific setup.

It's worth noting that using throttle-only mode can be less efficient and potentially less safe than using a PAS system, as it requires more input from the rider to regulate speed and power. However, it may still be a viable option depending on your preferences and needs.

I am happy with PAS but would like just one setting. PAS 0 with full throttle ONLY providing engine power and me being able to jump in on the pedals and add my pedaling without adding PAS. I tried AtoZs programming yesterday and it wasnt what I wanted. When I pedalled at PAS 0 it added PAS. Will try his programming again today, it easy to get lost making changes. Coming from a Hub drive throttle only providing engine power and the pedals providing person power. I like pedalling. I actually find it safer and more economical for saving battery range. Cutting the grey wire may be on my horizon. Any more input from you folks is much appreciated!

[AZguy]

Try again but it is intended to work in a PAS level not PAS0

In other words lets say you set PAS 1 to 100% current/speed and then let the display sit at PAS1 - then you should get the behavior your looking for (as long as PAS0 is set 100/0)... I know it doesn't make sense that setting PAS0 that way would affect the other PAS levels... but it does for some bizarre reason...

[jaaklucas]

Yes - there are four options and firmware is one option that can fix but has some risks



If you are ok with throttle only a second option is a parameter set that will do the job even with the flawed firmware and of course since it's just parameters you can always return it back:

Set assist 0 to 100% current and 0% speed

Set throttle designated assist level and speed limit to "By Display's Command"


Set the PAS level(s) you intend to use to appropriate maximum - when I did this I set the display to only have three levels and set the three levels to all have sped at 100% and then had the first level at 50% current, the second at 71% and the third at 100% - this is entirely optional, when I first did this I just set all levels (aside from 0) to 100/100 which is the simplest and works fine

Set the throttle mode and start current the way you like - for me I set it to "current" mode and 1% start current]

Ok I got it to work. I went to an earlier thread of yours on the topic and disabled the Pedal assist settings. Thank you sir!

[AZguy]

Ok I got it to work. I went to an earlier thread of yours on the topic and disabled the Pedal assist settings. Thank you sir!

Excellent! Good to hear and thanks for the follow up

I remember when a fellow posted that this setting set was like cutting the grey wire and I just didn't see why it would do that and didn't try it for a couple of weeks... sure was surprised that it works that way - likely just some bug.... err... undocumented feature in the firmware

Was pretty happy with it that way but have to admit that tearing into the potting and doing the circuit modification made me happier

This was the proto board version:



and the minimal potting removal to install:



I did fill in the spot near where the wires come in and the little boards sits with RTV (electronic grade!)

I ended up making a "real" PCA shortly after:

[jaaklucas]

I got out yesterday for a spirited 60K mixed ride with throttle only PAS totally disabled. I came from a throttle only hub drive so im totally used to it. After trying PAS for a month or 2, Im happy to go back to throttle only. A little tiring on the thumb shifter though but Ive got a half twist throttle on order. You can just kinda lean on the half twist when your hand is tired and really youre not engaging power all the time. I can be more economical as far as draining the battery for extended range with throttle only. I pedal alot so I just feed the juice as needed. With the mid drive its easy to shift by just releasing the throttle quickly to disengage power then shift. Or a light bib on the brake lever works too like a clutch on a motorcycle. You dont have to stop pedalling to shift . I also ride motorcycle. I find throttle only as safe as using PAS so Im not sure why they dont want Ebikes with throttles only . Loving the BBSHD for what I do which is city and local mountains stuff which can be steep. This is what I wanted mid drive for. But for commuter I will miss the hub drive with front derailler options for top end. So its a trade off.

[AZguy]

I started with a large bafang geared rear hub and realized it just wasn't going to cut it for me pretty quickly... did my BBSHD build and >8000mi later totally pleased =]

I've also got a half twist throttle and after trying some others really like it the best


Have fun (sort of rhetorical lol)!

[Retrorockit]

You should keep pedaling when you shift a normal derailer bike. It really doesn't work if you stop.
There are a couple mechanical mods that can allow that. The one that allows shifting with or without pedaling and up and downshift multiple gears is the Zip Tie Mod. But it requires some serious commitment to chain management to work properly.

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/main-forum/diy-discussion/156222-mid-drive-cassettte-zip-tie-mod

[jaaklucas]

Retrorockit,I think were saying the same thing. No problems pedaling and shifting a chain when its not motor powered. For sure keep pedaling. But when your chain is powered up its a little trickier.

[Retrorockit]

There are a couple videos of the Shimano FFS at the start of the thread. One shows the shifting, the other shows the breakaway feature, but Shimano used s slipper clutch.But with a gripshift I can run it up on the center stand and scroll up and down through the gears
Everything AZ and I do seems to always come out opposite. It's just where and how we ride.

[jaaklucas]

So I tried the zip tie method quickly with the rear wheel suspended and spinning. The Freewheel didnt seem to be able to keep up with the BBSHD freewheel and the upper section of the chain was sagging alot. Got stuck in between the tire and the frame. Ill give it a miss for now.

[Retrorockit]

I think AZ has the newer clutch type derailer that has a stronger spring. I've seen what you describe, but only with friction in the top run of the chain.A little slack there does happen until the derailer can pull it back out. I'm running an old 8 speed derailer. Clean and lube everything. The front freewheel needs to be loose, the derailer cage loose. derailer wheels too. make sure everything is lubed and working freely before trying it again.

[jaaklucas]

AZ, Since I dont use a gear sensor(not opposed to it still learning mid drive) I will give it a go. I only use a 7 speed freewheel anyways so it may be okay...

[AZguy]

Oh yeah, give it a try - after all the only up front investment is a little zip tie (use the smallest one) =]