TSDZ2 questions

[valueseek]

Buying a TSDZ2 is a complicated option nightmare. I can’t find anyone who has written about the different versions in detail.

So i understand:

There are two different windings, are they different in the 36v and 48v kits?

There are a few different display options(vldc6, vldc5, xh18) that I’ve read are not compatible with each other. Do I need to get a certain version for it to work with the programmable VLDC3?

There is a old version with spur gears and a new version with helical gears, are the spur gear versions still being shipped? Do I need to ask and make sure I’m getting the helical version?

To program the controller I need a st-link and a spare speed sensor, is that everything?

The wattage options are just the current settings as far as I know.

Anything wrong with this plan?:
I get a helical 36v TSDZ2(vldc5) with throttle and use it with my 48v battery with the custom firmware and a vldc3 + shift interruptor.

[Retrorockit]

Here's the 200+ page thread on TSDZ2.https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...8931bbedf56c93
The 36V motor has an over 90RPM limit when used with higher Voltages. When used with the normal Voltage they all have 90RPM cutoff.
You need the 8 pin motor controller for the aftermarket displays and open source firmware. This is the one for throttle I beleive. The PAS only version won't work. Old gears, new gears, plastic gears, metal gears. Temperature modding.
These are popular in areas where 250-350W is the legal limit. I would suggest a BBS02, or BBSHD instead. I own one. By the time you buy all the parts and mod it you're still way behind on power and reliability.

[valueseek]

Good info, thank you. I’d rather stick with a small motor because I want to use mostly DIY cheap low current batteries. The light weight and torque sensing tsdz2 should work perfect for what I’m wanting to do.

I think will be the one

[Retrorockit]

Nice price for a kit with throttle and brake levers, I think you'll have fun with it. At 350W it will probably last OK.
I built one as a guest bike and it's very nice. Mine was PAS only and I had to buy lots of part to get the open source firmware and display to use it. But at 750W it won't like the Florida heat. The Bafang mid drives are illegal in Europe so most of the action with these is over there. A lot of people think PAS means you do more work, but actualy if you use the lower settings on a motion sensing motor when you add more power it's all you.

[valueseek]

It’s great, I’m loving it so far. I’m still waiting for the parts to run the opensource firmware so I’m just using a 36v hoverboard pack modified to fit in a hailong battery case held on with 2 bell clinchmaster 600 water bottle mounts. It’s on a 2006 GT I-drive 4 2.0.

I got the 250w version but it still uses 16a and changing the setting in the display does nothing.... I have no idea what the watt rating really means or if the 350w is any different at all. Maybe it’s an 18a setting..

Yeah i I really don’t mind cadence systems either. I just thought the torque sensing wound be a good match for this bike and i definitely like how it turned out.

[Retrorockit]

Is that for street? Some Scwalbe Big Apple Plus, and upgrade the bell to an electric or air horn. Very nice bike to convert. Old 26" XC bikes make great handling street bikes.

[valueseek]

Not exclusively, so I’ll probably just keep using off road tires for now and replace them more often. If I can find a second wheel set then I’ll definitely pick up some street tires and the scwalbe big apple plus look really good.

Yeah i really like the bike, especially with the motor. 26” handles amazing like you said and the drivetrain, brakes, suspension etc all feel really refined compared to the cheaper mountain bikes I’ve had in the past.

The bell definitely need to be replaced hah, but I prefer it to yelling “on your left!”.

I also picked up a beat up 2004 Specialized Rockhopper FSR XC that I think would make a good e-bike.

[Retrorockit]

I prefer yellling for trail use. I yell "BICYCLE" so they know hat's coming. On the street with cars and AC, radios etc. I find an air horn is needed.
The 26" Sun Rhynolite/ Shimano Deore disc wheelset is almost always on sale somewhere. Triple hollow rim. Entry level DH rated.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Wheel-Mas...kaAo3kEALw_wcB
That FSR XC looks nice. I see it has an adjustable travel fork that can be pulled down for faster response on the street. Obsolete XC bikes can get you into some lightweight high ens parts for not much money.
Kenda Nevegals are nice dirt tires.

[Hard Tail]

I’ve had my eye on TSDZ2 since first reading about them on this forum. I like the concept and the size is appealing, but I just haven’t actually seen one here in Australia yet. My wife and I only ride in PAS at low power settings anyway so the power a peck doesn’t phase me, just the cost and longevity. I’d be interested to hear how you go with your project bike.

[Retrorockit]

You need to look around in this huge thread about the TSDZ2. Several reliability issues. Seems to be a 350W motor which is the legal limit inmany places.If 350W and 20mph suits you it's a nice kit. The 750W is moentary use rating, not a constant rating like the 1500W BBSHD.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...45726#p1445726

[Hard Tail]

Thanks Retrorocket. That’s basically answered my question. The BBSHD,s I own are exceeding all expectations so I’d most probably be setting up for a disappointment with a TSDZ2. I still like the idea of a torque assist system though.

[tklop]

I saw a lot of paranoid suspicions, and suppositions--and not much actual experience at that thread.

I'll share some actual experience:

My TSDZ2 750W motor (48V system) is quite nice.

I almost never ride it at any setting under "Turbo" (max assist). I've gone on rides of an hour-and-a-half and longer, at max assist, max speed (helping along, I can sustain 38 to 42 kph depending upon the prevailing winds) --and naturally this is almost always in the top gear on the 7-speed Nexus IGH. (all out-of-the-box factory settings--I'm not some fool who's trying to cook it by changing the default max-current).

I have never had a hint of overheating, never an issue. No matter what I've been doing, I can hold my hand on it comfortably. The TSDZ2 gets about as warm as a house cat.

I've found the TSDZ2 to be highly reliable. I've never even had an issue in very heavy downpours (there's a whole lot of world outside SoCal--and most of it has weather--and I'm someone who's not afraid of riding in it).

Naturally, after a few hundred kilometers, I went through it all and snugged everything down--but other than that zero maintenance of any kind has been required.

I did not choose the metal-gear option either (that'd just be noisy--and ultimately pointless).

I like it. Torque-sensing is a delightful experience. The throttle is your "superman legs" ---pretty much as it should be.

Anyways--just to balance all the negativity. It is not meant to be comparable to a BBSHD--but to a BBS02. And there is no comparison--I have far superior performance to the BBS02. I share the bike-paths with hundreds of them here, and my TSDZ2 is stronger and quieter, and I find myself regularly passing them all with ease.*

So.... Don't be afraid of the TSDZ2 750W mid-motor. At least through my first several tens-of-thousands of miles, mine has proved to be well worth the price.

Best of luck with your projects, everybody!

*[note: Due to my own misunderstanding, not everything above is accurate. I've offered a correction later in this thread]

[Retrorockit]

I own a TSDZ2 and have ridden it some, but it's on a very small frame for guest riders. So I don't ride it much. My Nexus 7 IGH skipped in Turbo mode, so I upraded to an 8 speed IGH. The fact that the cover is cold to the touch means the heat is staying inside the motor itself. That thread contains many examples of broken gears and overheating motors. It's over 200 pages long. I suspect TLDR may be in effect here. I'm also pretty sure the climate in the Netherlands doesn't resemble Califiornia or South FL very much. I do like the TSDZ2 kit for it's size and weight. At 48V 750W the performance is good also. Mine with the plastic gear is louder than my BBSHD. Not bad just louder. If you are a strong and fit cyclist the motor will be providing a much smaller part of the power than in the case of an older, or less experienced user.
42kph = 26mph which is realistic for this motor. A far cry from the 35MPH my BBSHD can do.

[tklop]

Exactly. Not comparable at all to a BBSHD. Not at all. And I would argue--never intended for such a comparison.

I've gone on those long rides when it's over 95 degrees Fahrenheit here (which is a lot hotter than you usually get in Orange County) and in sub-zero temps too; rain or shine. I don't think the heat is "staying inside" for multi-hour-long trips. I'm pretty sure that would defy the laws of physics.

Maybe I got the "one magical good unit"--but I doubt that!

I suspect those with issues have tried to do stupid things like increase the current-limits. We love to ignore instructions, and try to fiddle--and pushing our gear to the max is normal (among the likes of us). But for those who do mess around--and encounter problems--I say, well... Own it! That's your own fault!

But yes. Comparing the TSDZ2 to a BBSHD is an unfair comparison. The BBSHD is a lot more powerful--and because of that, I generally think of the BBSHD in a whole different category of mid-motor... To me, the BBSHD is up there with the Cyclone...

I think a fairer comparison for the TSDZ2 is Bafang's BBS02 mid-drive. In that contest, the TSDZ2 wins out (in my opinion)--and it isn't even close. To me, the TSDZ2 is clearly superior to the BBS02 mid-drive.*

But yes--Retro--I have the deepest respect for you here--and I do believe you when you speak of others' woes--but I'm also not up to digging through the other 190+ pages over there (which seemed predominantly negative)--in hopes of the occasional gem of wisdom!

I only wanted to share my own experience--which so far has been only positive!

All the best, Retro!

*[note: Due to my own misunderstanding, not everything above is accurate. I've offered a correction later in this thread]

[tklop]

You're a lot harder on yours than I've been on mine, Retro!

I'm commuting--not off-roading. My bike is a city-bike--with normal 28" Schwalbe Marathon Plus bike-tires--no drag-inducing knobbies or fatties.

Nor is it some speedy nimble road-bike. It's a Batavus Weekend--without suspension (relatively easy to see images of the model). It's a sturdy (but not particularly lightweight) aluminum-frame Dutch city-bike. Pretty average--around here anyway.

So--I know what I'm doing isn't extreme in any way. I freely admit that I'm not trying to push its boundaries. I'm not trying break it, I'm only just trying to use the heck out of it--for pretty much exactly what it seems to have been intended for.

Having said that, I'm pushing that motor as hard as I can regularly. Pretty much every trip I take (unless my battery is almost flat) is in Turbo-Assist mode, at max-speed, in my hardest (7th) gear. Many of my trips sustain that for 45 to 80 kilometers at a time. Furthermore, in my 7th gear, the motor doesn't reach max RPM--it's just "topped out"--giving all it's got. Running a little below top RPM is for sure one reason it runs a little quieter than the Bafangs, Bosch's, Blaupunkts, Yamaha's, (etc. and so-on). The TSDZ2 is much louder in lower assist-settings, and in lower gears. So--yeah... I know 7th is my "max abuse" gear-choice... And I know 7th only gives me a couple kilometers per hour more than I get out of 6th gear--which would be kinder to the motor probably--but I want those KPH's--so I use 7th anyway.

Now... I know I'm not pushing it--in terms of extreme use... I'm not hopping over logs, not flying off of ramps, not climbing embankments, etc. In terms of ruggedness, I'm definitely not asking as much of mine as you are--or others...

But I'm still certain that what I am doing--is asking an awful lot of the little thing--pretty much all it can give me--for hours on end... And so far--it hasn't ever gotten hot--hasn't complained.

Maybe I did get "the magical good one"!

I think that if the 48V 750W TSDZ2 is used for what it's intended for--it's quite capable and (in my own experience) completely reliable--as-is, out-of-the-box, no mods, or other changes are needed. Stock configuration works just fine (within reason--go ahead and remove the "max-speed" limit, set your proper wheel-size--maybe screen-brightness if you like).

If some folks try to destroy their TSDZ2 by over-volting, or messing with the current-limits, or by trying to pretend it's supposed to turn their turd-of-a-fat-tire-bike into a super-moto-cross--well, those folks will indeed likely have no problem at all breaking their TSDZ2s. Those folks should've bought Cyclones--or BBSHD's!

So--no... I am not among the "TSDZ2 Destruction Club" like so many others seem to be. I don't have the disposable income to waste on needlessly destroying mine!

And maybe that's why mine has proved (so far) to be so reliable. I'll be converting a couple more bikes to TSDZ2 mid-motors--another 28" commuter-bike, and a 26" cargo-bike. I have every reason to expect they'll be just as reliable.

To me, the biggest selling-point is the torque-sensing. There are just no other torque-sensing drives available in the price-range of the TSDZ2. Because the TSDZ2 fills this niche--it's the perfect mid-motor conversion for me.

Different strokes for different folks.

[valueseek]

Tklop is %100 right. The BBSHD is so different that it isn’t directly comparable to the tsdz2, so neither is better or worse. I don’t know much about the BBS02, but I seriously doubt it’s faster on singletrack.

I've done a lot on this motor in the short time I’ve had it. 150+ miles, riding in heavy rain, hard trails and jumps, plenty of crashes, even accidentally smashed it into logs like a bash guard. It’s held up far past my expectations.

if you want extra power available at all times, it isn’t the motor for you. It can only give higher output in bursts. If you’re willing to sacrifice that to save weight(in the battery also), and make use of the amazing controller and make your bike feel like it has a Yamaha motor, then you won’t be disappointed once you ride it.

My father put the same kit on his hybrid cruiser and my brother put one on his ironhorse downhill bike.

You can use $30 10s2p “4.4ah” hoverboard packs, they work fine.

I did the firmware upgrade and it’s awesome. You can set a current limit, adjust max wattage on the fly, set current ramp, set each level of assist and how many there are, and use whatever battery you want. You also get all the data you could on the display.

[tklop]

Glad to hear about your success with the firmware upgrade. I don't know if I'll mess with it--the thing performs really great for me (for my purposes anyway).

But I use LiFePO4--and have found the battery-readout is useless... Shows all bars until the voltage is dipping--down near LVC.

If the firmware would improve that--it might be worth it!

[BK Xray]

I have a motor that was updated with the firmware from the seller (Eco Bikes). It does seem to have a more accurate battery display than the non-updated version on my wife's bike. That is with a Li-ion battery though. I like the TSDZ2 for the most part. The BBS02 I had on my mountain bike was quieter and I prefer being able to use the throttle without the PAS kicking in off road like the BBS02 can do. Otherwise, the torque sensing on the TSDZ2 is superior to the PAS on the BBS02. I have the TSDZ2 on a Rans Stratus long wheel base recumbent. With a 52 volt 13 ah battery, I can get 70 miles or so using the "speed" setting (level 3). I do not have the speed sensor hooked because I preferred the way the system worked without it. I have never had trouble with the motor overheating, even on 90 degree days climbing serious hills.

[valueseek]

I own a TSDZ2 and have ridden it some, but it's on a very small frame for guest riders. So I don't ride it much. My Nexus 7 IGH skipped in Turbo mode, so I upraded to an 8 speed IGH. The fact that the cover is cold to the touch means the heat is staying inside the motor itself. That thread contains many examples of broken gears and overheating motors. It's over 200 pages long. I suspect TLDR may be in effect here. I'm also pretty sure the climate in the Netherlands doesn't resemble Califiornia or South FL very much. I do like the TSDZ2 kit for it's size and weight. At 48V 750W the performance is good also. Mine with the plastic gear is louder than my BBSHD. Not bad just louder. If you are a strong and fit cyclist the motor will be providing a much smaller part of the power than in the case of an older, or less experienced user.
42kph = 26mph which is realistic for this motor. A far cry from the 35MPH my BBSHD can do.

Haha TLDR Was definitely in effect. Reading the github page helped the most, there is a lot of info that isn’t about the firmware.

If the cover never gets warm that’s a good thing, you aren’t pushing the motor near it’s limits. The heat eventually makes its way out, it just takes a little while. Because of that, short bursts of power are fine, extended sessions with 13a+ will probably burn the motor. IIRC the motor is around $70, controllers are $70, blue gears are around $17, The large reduction gear is around $30. It seems like this motor can last indefinitely with regular maintenance, inspection, and some replacement parts.