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  • Retrorockit
    commented on 's reply
    QuirkyOrk had good results with cheap TIM pads AND external heatsinks. Not sure how the cost benefit plays out there.But it's good place to start. 3M pads seem to be the median pad in price and performance.
    Last edited by Retrorockit; 09-12-2019, 01:35 PM.

  • valueseek
    replied
    Good TIM pads are expensive, I saw in the thread you and some others recommending better ones. I’ll probably move to those after I get the temp sensor and at least try some cheap ones.

    I’m actually moving to 15s for the other benefits. High cadence limit with less/no back emf in the top end, and less heat generated at the same power level because the current will be lower.

    8-10a max would give me 400-500w peak power. I think the feature that keeps a consistent power level as the battery get low will need to be accounted for.

    I’ve been really happy with the stock power level, and if anything I think it’s too much for both my li-ion capacity cells and the motor. It really annoys me that even though the vlcd5 secret menu has a option to set the amp limit, it doesn’t work and does nothing at all. It’s the main reason I switched to the firmware.

    I definitely checked what the limit is in the display, it’s 15s. The controller has 63v capacitors and has been confirmed to work at as high as 62.2v. With a programmable Bluetooth BMS I can set exactly when I want it to stop charging.

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  • Retrorockit
    replied
    I think the TSDZ2 can be an excellent motor, but at 750W you have to do some modding to get there. Much of the world has a 350W Ebike limit, and in that environment it's a popular option. Two things are working against it in the US. One is the 750W limit that isn't actually enforced in many areas. The other is that in Europe bicycling for transportation and sport is an established part of life there. In the US it's very rare, so the typical US rider is not conditioned to produce high continuos output (my apologies to those who are). Many are coming to this from cars, or motorcycles. Some like myself are getting on in years. I can understand a rider who wants to maintain their leg conditioning may prefer the PAS type motor. You have to work to get the assist. As shipped i view the TSDZ2 as a good 350W motor with a 750W intermittent rating.

    QuirkyOrk bent the heatsinks. You need to selct ones with a thin base. With good TIM pads they may not be needed. If you overcool the motor you're wasting Watts. At 58V you mayneed alll the cooling you can get. Be sure you can get a Volt setting for that. They refuse to run when overvolted unless you have the aftermarket firmware. I'm not a firmware kind of guy, so ask around for specifics.

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  • valueseek
    replied
    Retrorocket Thank you, you’re the man. Did QuirkyOrk bend the heat sinks himself? They look like they fit perfectly..

    I’m already working on the temp sensor and a lightweight 58v smart battery, after adding the pads and heat sinks too I think I’ll see a huge improvement.

    tklop yeah I made the same mistake, whoops. Anyway the only point i was making is that my experience with the tsdz2 has been really positive. The Bafangs and Tongshengs are all good motors.

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  • tklop
    commented on 's reply
    You're a lot harder on yours than I've been on mine, Retro!

    I'm commuting--not off-roading. My bike is a city-bike--with normal 28" Schwalbe Marathon Plus bike-tires--no drag-inducing knobbies or fatties.

    Nor is it some speedy nimble road-bike. It's a Batavus Weekend--without suspension (relatively easy to see images of the model). It's a sturdy (but not particularly lightweight) aluminum-frame Dutch city-bike. Pretty average--around here anyway.

    So--I know what I'm doing isn't extreme in any way. I freely admit that I'm not trying to push its boundaries. I'm not trying break it, I'm only just trying to use the heck out of it--for pretty much exactly what it seems to have been intended for.

    Having said that, I'm pushing that motor as hard as I can regularly. Pretty much every trip I take (unless my battery is almost flat) is in Turbo-Assist mode, at max-speed, in my hardest (7th) gear. Many of my trips sustain that for 45 to 80 kilometers at a time. Furthermore, in my 7th gear, the motor doesn't reach max RPM--it's just "topped out"--giving all it's got. Running a little below top RPM is for sure one reason it runs a little quieter than the Bafangs, Bosch's, Blaupunkts, Yamaha's, (etc. and so-on). The TSDZ2 is much louder in lower assist-settings, and in lower gears. So--yeah... I know 7th is my "max abuse" gear-choice... And I know 7th only gives me a couple kilometers per hour more than I get out of 6th gear--which would be kinder to the motor probably--but I want those KPH's--so I use 7th anyway.

    Now... I know I'm not pushing it--in terms of extreme use... I'm not hopping over logs, not flying off of ramps, not climbing embankments, etc. In terms of ruggedness, I'm definitely not asking as much of mine as you are--or others...

    But I'm still certain that what I am doing--is asking an awful lot of the little thing--pretty much all it can give me--for hours on end... And so far--it hasn't ever gotten hot--hasn't complained.

    Maybe I did get "the magical good one"!

    I think that if the 48V 750W TSDZ2 is used for what it's intended for--it's quite capable and (in my own experience) completely reliable--as-is, out-of-the-box, no mods, or other changes are needed. Stock configuration works just fine (within reason--go ahead and remove the "max-speed" limit, set your proper wheel-size--maybe screen-brightness if you like).

    If some folks try to destroy their TSDZ2 by over-volting, or messing with the current-limits, or by trying to pretend it's supposed to turn their turd-of-a-fat-tire-bike into a super-moto-cross--well, those folks will indeed likely have no problem at all breaking their TSDZ2s. Those folks should've bought Cyclones--or BBSHD's!

    So--no... I am not among the "TSDZ2 Destruction Club" like so many others seem to be. I don't have the disposable income to waste on needlessly destroying mine!

    And maybe that's why mine has proved (so far) to be so reliable. I'll be converting a couple more bikes to TSDZ2 mid-motors--another 28" commuter-bike, and a 26" cargo-bike. I have every reason to expect they'll be just as reliable.

    To me, the biggest selling-point is the torque-sensing. There are just no other torque-sensing drives available in the price-range of the TSDZ2. Because the TSDZ2 fills this niche--it's the perfect mid-motor conversion for me.

    Different strokes for different folks.
    Last edited by tklop; 09-13-2019, 12:56 AM.

  • tklop
    replied
    Hey--I want to offer an apology, and correction.

    Up there (earlier in this thread)--I've written that I see the BBS02's everywhere, and that my TSDZ2 outperforms them by a big margin.

    I want to retract those claims--because I realize now I am actually seeing the Bafang BBS01's everywhere--not the 750W Bafang BBS02's.

    Yes, the 750W BBS02 mid-drive is indeed the best Bafang model to choose--if you want to do a side-by-side comparison with the 750W TSDZ2. I did have that part correct.

    But for the observational performance-related comparisons I related--the Bafang's performance--was that of the BBS01--not the BBS02. I was looking at the wrong Bafang mid-drive models.

    Comparing my TSDZ2 performance, I proudly said "I pass them regularly" and such... Well, duh--of course I do! That's what--a 250W mid-drive in the BBS01?

    Obviously, what I'd stated was just as "apples and oranges" of an unfair comparison, as trying to line up the TSDZ2 against the BBSHD was!

    I am sorry about that.

    Having realized my mistake, I wanted to make it right--as best I can!

    Hopefully, with this posting, I'll have done so.

    Best of luck with your projects, everyone!
    Last edited by tklop; 09-09-2019, 10:04 AM.

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  • Retrorockit
    commented on 's reply
    If you want to look in on the coolig mod discussion at ES start at about page 220 near the bottom of the page
    .https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...788&start=5475

  • BK Xray
    commented on 's reply
    I have a motor that was updated with the firmware from the seller (Eco Bikes). It does seem to have a more accurate battery display than the non-updated version on my wife's bike. That is with a Li-ion battery though. I like the TSDZ2 for the most part. The BBS02 I had on my mountain bike was quieter and I prefer being able to use the throttle without the PAS kicking in off road like the BBS02 can do. Otherwise, the torque sensing on the TSDZ2 is superior to the PAS on the BBS02. I have the TSDZ2 on a Rans Stratus long wheel base recumbent. With a 52 volt 13 ah battery, I can get 70 miles or so using the "speed" setting (level 3). I do not have the speed sensor hooked because I preferred the way the system worked without it. I have never had trouble with the motor overheating, even on 90 degree days climbing serious hills.

  • Retrorockit
    replied
    There is some work being done at Endlessspere to help the cooling on these. It involves filling the air gap between the motor and cover with thermal transfer pads to improve heat transfer to the air. This makes the cover hotter than without it. For heat transfer to occur the surface must be hotter than the cooling air. The more the temperature difference the higher the rate of cooling. If you can achieve real time cooling the continuos output should improve. As provided the cover with an air gap actually insulates the motor. Some of the users at endlesssphere put thermal sensors on their motors. They know exactly how hot these things get. This requires board level soldering and removes the throttle option.There is a lot to like about the TSDZ2. I would suggest that you look before you leap with this one. Many options, many upgrades, more remains to be done in my opinion. It's true most of the posts at ES are about firmware, but there is a lot of other info. also.
    As far as the "advantage" PAS is supposed to have regarding rider input. At assist level 1 with my BBSHD all output over about 300W comes from my legs. Alll you have to do is choose a low assist setting. This improves range greatly. They "feel " different, but the end result at steady speed seems about the same to me.
    Last edited by Retrorockit; 09-07-2019, 04:33 PM.

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  • tklop
    commented on 's reply
    Thanks! I will check that out. If only I didn't have to be "different" --with my choice of battery-chemistry--right?

    Appreciated, valueseek!

    All the best

  • valueseek
    replied
    Tklop I haven’t found a setting for battery chemistry, but there are a lot of other options available. The 48v controller assumes you are using a 13s, so maybe changing the setting to 14s with the new display would make it the bars more accurate. Aside from that, there are a bunch of features you can display like a remaining watt meter, voltage meter, and state of charge indicator. Check it out

    https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-..._Battery_Setup
    Last edited by valueseek; 09-07-2019, 05:24 PM.

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  • valueseek
    replied
    Originally posted by Retrorockit View Post
    I own a TSDZ2 and have ridden it some, but it's on a very small frame for guest riders. So I don't ride it much. My Nexus 7 IGH skipped in Turbo mode, so I upraded to an 8 speed IGH. The fact that the cover is cold to the touch means the heat is staying inside the motor itself. That thread contains many examples of broken gears and overheating motors. It's over 200 pages long. I suspect TLDR may be in effect here. I'm also pretty sure the climate in the Netherlands doesn't resemble Califiornia or South FL very much. I do like the TSDZ2 kit for it's size and weight. At 48V 750W the performance is good also. Mine with the plastic gear is louder than my BBSHD. Not bad just louder. If you are a strong and fit cyclist the motor will be providing a much smaller part of the power than in the case of an older, or less experienced user.
    42kph = 26mph which is realistic for this motor. A far cry from the 35MPH my BBSHD can do.

    Haha TLDR Was definitely in effect. Reading the github page helped the most, there is a lot of info that isn’t about the firmware.

    If the cover never gets warm that’s a good thing, you aren’t pushing the motor near it’s limits. The heat eventually makes its way out, it just takes a little while. Because of that, short bursts of power are fine, extended sessions with 13a+ will probably burn the motor. IIRC the motor is around $70, controllers are $70, blue gears are around $17, The large reduction gear is around $30. It seems like this motor can last indefinitely with regular maintenance, inspection, and some replacement parts.

    Leave a comment:


  • tklop
    commented on 's reply
    Glad to hear about your success with the firmware upgrade. I don't know if I'll mess with it--the thing performs really great for me (for my purposes anyway).

    But I use LiFePO4--and have found the battery-readout is useless... Shows all bars until the voltage is dipping--down near LVC.

    If the firmware would improve that--it might be worth it!
    Last edited by tklop; 09-07-2019, 10:45 AM.

  • tklop
    commented on 's reply
    Exactly. Not comparable at all to a BBSHD. Not at all. And I would argue--never intended for such a comparison.

    I've gone on those long rides when it's over 95 degrees Fahrenheit here (which is a lot hotter than you usually get in Orange County) and in sub-zero temps too; rain or shine. I don't think the heat is "staying inside" for multi-hour-long trips. I'm pretty sure that would defy the laws of physics.

    Maybe I got the "one magical good unit"--but I doubt that!

    I suspect those with issues have tried to do stupid things like increase the current-limits. We love to ignore instructions, and try to fiddle--and pushing our gear to the max is normal (among the likes of us). But for those who do mess around--and encounter problems--I say, well... Own it! That's your own fault!

    But yes. Comparing the TSDZ2 to a BBSHD is an unfair comparison. The BBSHD is a lot more powerful--and because of that, I generally think of the BBSHD in a whole different category of mid-motor... To me, the BBSHD is up there with the Cyclone...

    I think a fairer comparison for the TSDZ2 is Bafang's BBS02 mid-drive. In that contest, the TSDZ2 wins out (in my opinion)--and it isn't even close. To me, the TSDZ2 is clearly superior to the BBS02 mid-drive.*

    But yes--Retro--I have the deepest respect for you here--and I do believe you when you speak of others' woes--but I'm also not up to digging through the other 190+ pages over there (which seemed predominantly negative)--in hopes of the occasional gem of wisdom!

    I only wanted to share my own experience--which so far has been only positive!

    All the best, Retro!

    *[note: Due to my own misunderstanding, not everything above is accurate. I've offered a correction later in this thread]
    Last edited by tklop; 09-13-2019, 12:44 AM.

  • valueseek
    replied
    Tklop is %100 right. The BBSHD is so different that it isn’t directly comparable to the tsdz2, so neither is better or worse. I don’t know much about the BBS02, but I seriously doubt it’s faster on singletrack.

    I've done a lot on this motor in the short time I’ve had it. 150+ miles, riding in heavy rain, hard trails and jumps, plenty of crashes, even accidentally smashed it into logs like a bash guard. It’s held up far past my expectations.

    if you want extra power available at all times, it isn’t the motor for you. It can only give higher output in bursts. If you’re willing to sacrifice that to save weight(in the battery also), and make use of the amazing controller and make your bike feel like it has a Yamaha motor, then you won’t be disappointed once you ride it.

    My father put the same kit on his hybrid cruiser and my brother put one on his ironhorse downhill bike.

    You can use $30 10s2p “4.4ah” hoverboard packs, they work fine.

    I did the firmware upgrade and it’s awesome. You can set a current limit, adjust max wattage on the fly, set current ramp, set each level of assist and how many there are, and use whatever battery you want. You also get all the data you could on the display.

    Leave a comment:

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