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Shaving weight off my Luna X1 and other X1 mods

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    My MPH/Odometer went out about a month ago and Luna sent me out a non-Ludi peek gear M600 to swap in to try and correct the issue. The issue remains however it's given me the ability to back to back test a Ludi-equipped peek gear M600 vs. a standard M600.

    As far as smoothness goes the stock M600 is marginally smoother but to me this is just because the "peaks and valleys" between the maximum assist torque and no torque is smaller so it just jolts you with a little less force and therefore feels smoother. PAS 1 of 9 is still non existent. In fact I didn't find PAS 1-4 usable at all. They are less jerky than the Ludi version but still not usable for getting any meaningful assist to get you up a hill. As far as output goes it's quiet noticeably less powerful to the point I was quite surprised by how much effort I had to put in to ride my same trails on PAS 5 (of 9).

    After some testing and watching the wattage output on the display closely on sections of trail I was very familiar with I would say PAS 9 (full power) on the non-Ludi M600 is equal to PAS 5 (of 9) on the ludi M600. Both would be outputting roughly 600 watts (but on the Ludi display it shows as 300 as the shunt mod just doubles the actual wattage output). Running with equivalent actual output (PAS 9 normal M600 vs. PAS 5 Ludi M600) I observed no increase in range or decrease in heat (which makes sense as they both are essentially outputting the same power at that point).

    I still don't get how EL34's bike can be ridden at PAS 1 as i've now tested both versions of the motor provided by Luna and neither come close to being usable at PAS 1.

    As the new motor didn't solve my issue i'll be returning it and keeping my Ludi M600. The extra power is so much better for me personally (or i'm just spoiled from it that going to a slower version just feels like a huge downgrade at this point).

    Comment


      Thanks for sharing your observations. I have the standard non-Ludi X1 on order, hoping that it arrives sometime in the next couple of weeks. Truth be told, the Ludi never sounded like it was of much interest to me, and I hope that your statement about being spoiled is accurate. In other words, something that I will not really notice.
      I agree that it sure sounds like EL34 has a unicorn bike, seeing as he appears to be the only person that finds the assist level on PAS1 to be fine for him. I too am hoping that I can get along with PAS1, as i truly want a workout while riding, but would not have much issue if the climbs were able to be dispatched quicker than when on my analog bike (GT Sensor 29r). I actually like climbing on the 29r, but admit that I am not in my best shape anymore. When climbs start to exceed 30 minutes or so, continuous, I notice that I am more likely to bonk. All my local rides start with a 1000' climb or more (which is probably the case with most folks). If I make it to the top with energy left over, I am able to explore without issue, and enjoy doing so. If I bonk on the climb, my motivation to explore once I get to the top usually disappears.
      Anyway, thanks for the update, and I hope that EL34 is ok with your post on his thread...I know that I am.

      Comment


        I find there is no change at all as far as getting a workout. Same workout, just a higher gear and higher speed. Means I go futher and spend less time on the hills going up. Mt Fitbit shows I actually get a higher intensity workout now than I did on a manual. I tend to hit the hills harder, and use power to get me over the top when I exceed my heart/lung capacity. Before I rode more steady-state.

        Comment


          My Non Ludi X1 is from of the second batch of X1's

          I would guess it was made maybe in August or September of 2019
          I received it October 31st 2019
          So maybe my bike is different than later versions?

          I do have a 40 tooth chain ring on mine, so there is one difference from a stock bike

          I never go above PAS 3/9 on my bike
          Even PAS 1 is too much assist on flattish to slight uphill's



          Comment


            Originally posted by EL34 View Post
            My Non Ludi X1 is from of the second batch of X1's

            I would guess it was made maybe in August or September of 2019
            I received it October 31st 2019
            So maybe my bike is different than later versions?

            I do have a 40 tooth chain ring on mine, so there is one difference from a stock bike

            I never go above PAS 3/9 on my bike
            Even PAS 1 is too much assist on flattish to slight uphill's


            I've watched some of your videos. I need to go pro my bike behavior in levels 1-4. I want to ride in 2-4. I have run out of juice twice now on 15+ mile rides with 4000+ feet of gain, its getting annoying.
            Playing around on my street I did find that in level 3-4 if I absolutely mashed the pedals it would respond with power. Like stomping down on it with each pedal stroke.
            However I do have a nice grinding noise now...
            https://streamable.com/gio8nn

            Comment


              Is that noise new? Or has it been that way since you got the bike?
              Does not sound right, that is for sure. Hope you are in contact with Luna about that.

              Comment


                I think I'm going to go with the Shimano brakes as well - I've never had an internally routed frame though. Did you have to chop the hose at the lever when removing the SRAM brakes? How do you get through this process without getting brake fluid everywhere?

                Comment


                  Originally posted by eskachig View Post
                  I think I'm going to go with the Shimano brakes as well - I've never had an internally routed frame though. Did you have to chop the hose at the lever when removing the SRAM brakes? How do you get through this process without getting brake fluid everywhere?
                  You cut the hose close to the fitting on either end. Front or back
                  I cut it at the rear caliper on mine
                  I took the caliper off first and kept it pointed up in the air while sitting on my bench so the fluid does not come out

                  You can screw in a tiny screw or push in a wooden tooth pick to keep the fluid from coming out of the cut hose

                  I got a new SRAM screw in fitting at a local bike shop
                  They had a big bag of them from assembling bikes
                  They were expensive on Amazon, but my bike shop gave me a few free

                  I reassembled the SRAM brake without loosing but a couple drops of fluid.

                  Here's what the SRAM fittings look like
                  They thread in with a tiny hex wrench

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Comment


                  • eskachig
                    eskachig commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thanks for the tip - looks like that fitting is called a "StealthamaJig", what a name. And yeah, $8 a pop looks like.

                    I might experiment with some heat shrink caps I have lying around, maybe I can seal in the brake fluid and leave that to the buyer - give them an easy opportunity for a trim.

                  EL34, or anyone that knows wheels for that matter...
                  I am looking at wheelsets on AilExpress and have some questions.
                  The current hub driver is Shimano, correct? If so, is it considered the Shimano 9,10,11?
                  Reason for asking is that I see options for XD 12spd, or Shm 9,10,11 most frequently...and these are boost.

                  If I buy, do I need to specify SHM12s, or is that the same as SHM9,10,11?
                  Of course, I could just go with XD driver, but then I would need to buy SRAM cassette, right?

                  I am thinking that the X1 comes with shimano 12s cassette, or is the cassette actually SRAM with Shimano driver mount? And is that a 12S or 11S that accepts the SRAM 12 speed cassette?

                  I hope this makes sense.
                  Thanks in advance

                  Comment


                    Just saw these. Order up!!! I got mine coming!!
                    https://lunacycle.com/luna-x1-enduro-short-crank-arms/


                    as for brakes, get the mtxbraking gold label pads. They work awesome with the guide R on the bike.

                    the freehub is the standard shimano/hg - it will fit 9-12
                    dont buy and xd freehub unless you are getting a whole new xd cassette. If you are buying new wheels and want to use the cassette that came on the bike just make sure it has a standard freehub. Avoid xd and microspline unless you want to upgrade cassette

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by mw195 View Post
                      EL34, or anyone that knows wheels for that matter...
                      I am looking at wheelsets on AilExpress and have some questions.
                      The current hub driver is Shimano, correct? If so, is it considered the Shimano 9,10,11?
                      Reason for asking is that I see options for XD 12spd, or Shm 9,10,11 most frequently...and these are boost.

                      If I buy, do I need to specify SHM12s, or is that the same as SHM9,10,11?
                      Of course, I could just go with XD driver, but then I would need to buy SRAM cassette, right?

                      I am thinking that the X1 comes with shimano 12s cassette, or is the cassette actually SRAM with Shimano driver mount? And is that a 12S or 11S that accepts the SRAM 12 speed cassette?

                      I hope this makes sense.
                      Thanks in advance
                      There is only two choices Shimano or SRAM XD
                      Shimano driver lets you use a bunch of different cassettes and cheaper cassettes by many companies
                      The only difference is the gears are closer together on the cassette itself, the driver body is the same

                      SRAM XD requires one of the way more expensive SRAM cassettes.
                      You get one lower cog with XD.
                      Instead of 11 you get a 10
                      XD is way lighter and way more expensive



                      Comment


                        Awesome. Thanks guys for clearing that up for me regarding the hub drivers. I was hoping that the standard hub was the right one, even though so many listings fail to mention 12s.
                        And thanks for the link on the 150mm crank arms as well. Ordered them up just in case, as I know that I like shorter crank arms, though 160 would have been my first choice...

                        Now I just have to wait patiently for my bike to arrive. Apparently it is now at Luna, but when it ships is anyone's guess. Mine is getting the silent gear upgrade, and the 860 display (though that probably just gets dropped in the box.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by mw195 View Post
                          Awesome. Thanks guys for clearing that up for me regarding the hub drivers. I was hoping that the standard hub was the right one, even though so many listings fail to mention 12s.
                          And thanks for the link on the 150mm crank arms as well. Ordered them up just in case, as I know that I like shorter crank arms, though 160 would have been my first choice...

                          Now I just have to wait patiently for my bike to arrive. Apparently it is now at Luna, but when it ships is anyone's guess. Mine is getting the silent gear upgrade, and the 860 display (though that probably just gets dropped in the box.
                          I should have said this about different cassettes. The Shimano driver body is the same width, the gears just keep getting closer together as you go up to 12 speed. And the chains keep getting thinner side to side

                          Comment


                            I really have to hammer on the pedals to get assist in 1/5 or 2/5. It seems to be improving over time, but I am also getting stronger over time.

                            I typically rip around the city park in 3/5, but if I am on a congested bike path I use 1/5 and I will hit the throttle to speed up. 1/5 will only really assist you when you are hammering on the pedals like on a steep uphill section.

                            Comment


                            • kengps
                              kengps commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Same on mine. And motor pulses on and off as the crank rotates due to pedal stroke mechanics.

                            • eskachig
                              eskachig commented
                              Editing a comment
                              It sounds like this motor really punishes not pedaling in "circles" at low assist levels - but on the plus side, that is a skill that can be improved. The idea of pedaling circles has a long history in cycling, and isn't without its controversy - generally about how much one should be pulling up on the upstroke, if at all. Some swear by it, others stick with mashing, and studies on efficiency etc are split - but sounds like mashing gets you poor output on the M600 so there is an incentive to change.

                              I've switched from clipless to platforms a while ago, so pulling up is no longer an option, but even with platforms you should be able to keep pressure on the pedals through the 12/6 position - dipping the heel a little and pushing forward with the top foot, and doing "scraping the shoe" motion pulling back with the other. Modern platforms keep you plenty locked in for that. Smoothness takes lots of practice and time.

                              https://www.bicycling.com/training/g...-stroke-power/

                              Or a DH-focused approach, only focusing on the top of the stroke.

                              https://www.leelikesbikes.com/what-i...g-circles.html
                              Last edited by eskachig; 09-08-2020, 08:59 AM.

                            eskachig
                            I don't think there is any doubt being clipped in is way better.
                            If it wasn't, don't you think all pro road and cross country cyclist would ditch clipless pedals?

                            I can see downhillers or big jump cyclist might not want to be clipped in.

                            Pulling up comes in really handy when you need to apply way more pedal effort
                            Like sprinting, standing up, etc
                            Pulling up hard when your legs are really tired feels good and gives the other muscles a break.

                            Comment


                            • eskachig
                              eskachig commented
                              Editing a comment
                              It depends on what you prioritize. I started mountain biking when platform pedals on mountain bikes were absolutely awful, and clipless just made perfect sense - I even used to do regular one-leg drills on moderate climbs on my old single-speed for strength and form. I was a complete convert for a very long time, though I eventually migrated to those now comically old M636 pedals on my single speed. Maybe I always liked having more underfoot.

                              But then when I got my first full suspension bike I tried modern platforms and it was an absolute revelation. Between being able to vary my foot position and all that leverage, something clicked and I simply had way more control of the bike. I just like them more for the fun stuff.

                              While you certainly won't see any roadies or xc folks ditching clipless, plenty of enduro racers ride with platforms - even the occasional world champ.
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