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Shaving weight off my Luna X1 and other X1 mods

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    #61
    Curious about the difference in pedal assist from your BBSHD to the X1? I have a BBSHD Fat Bike and its a rocket I am not pedaling much at all. I would really like to get more of a work out and more distance.

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      #62
      Originally posted by kirkwick View Post
      Curious about the difference in pedal assist from your BBSHD to the X1? I have a BBSHD Fat Bike and its a rocket I am not pedaling much at all. I would really like to get more of a work out and more distance.
      My BBSHD Fat Bike is sort of a dumb bike with lots of power.
      The motor does not have a torque sensor and so it is just full on when the pedals move one revolution.
      Whatever assist level you set on the BBSHD, it goes that speed

      The X1 has the torque sensor and it is way more controllable by pedal pressure
      I do get a workout on my X1
      I rarely go above assist level 3 on steep climbs
      I use assist one and two on the non steep stuff

      Another thing about both bikes
      If I have to dab on a technical climb, it's really difficult to get the fat bike going again because you need a full pedal revolution before assist kicks in
      You may have to go back down hill to a point where you can turn around and try again

      On the X1, just putting pressure on the pedals and it responds.
      It's really easy to get it going again on steep hills

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      • bradleyland
        bradleyland commented
        Editing a comment
        The Ludicrous modification is a shunt modification. It's a physical change to the controller, so it can't be reverted without a hardware modification to the controller. The Ludicrous mod works by doubling amperage output, which is what gives it that spiky torque feel. It's the difference between y = x and y = 2x, where y is the output amperage and x is the input torque. Although, I should be clear that the internal controller logic is likely non-linear. The Ludicrous mod does literally double though, so the increase in "ramp" of the output curve is real.

        Based on what I feel from my Ludi X-1, I can feel a change over in torque sensor response tuning at the 1/2 power mark. Settings above half power (3/5 or 5/9) appear to use a different torque response mapping. Combined with the increased power from the Ludicrous mod, this makes for difficult handling in technical climbs. I always gear down and use 4/9 if I need tight control over power. There's still a good amount of assist. You just can't blast up a technical climb at high speeds.

        I also use 9 levels, and I find that on my rides I vary between PAS 3/9 and 5/9. I use PAS 3/9 & 4/9 in tight areas, and up to PAS 5/9 when it opens up and I want to hit 20-ish MPH or faster. I'm in South Florida, so we don't have long technical climbs. Most of my technical work is climbing brief, root-covered inclines that have washed out. So feel free to take my feedback with that in mind. The Ludi mod works really well for me because I spend a lot of time riding in sand, where the extra power is the difference between being able to float over the top or getting bogged down in some sugar.

      • kite_rider
        kite_rider commented
        Editing a comment
        bradleyland, that's interesting info. Do you know where this shunt is? I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron and am full ready to experiment with this. Been meaning to tear the motor apart and re-lube it anyway. Am also interested in installing the nylon gear to make it more stealthy, but was waiting on a good writeup on that.

      • tomdav
        tomdav commented
        Editing a comment
        Hey guys, just got my X1. I had originally ordered one last year but couldn't handle the noise and returned it, but decided to give it another chance now that the quieter reduction gear is out. Took it out on my first ride yesterday and while I'm much happier with the noise level, the torque sensing is a major bummer. I remember it being less than refined but I'm finding PAS 1-2 (of 5) pretty much unusable. I have the non-ludi version and I can barely feel PAS 1, it's pretty much worthless. In PAS 2 of 5 it is not smooth at all. Unless I'm putting constant pressure on the pedals it will cut out mid cadence and is very jerky, not smooth at all. I left it in PAS 3 of 5 for most of my ride (around town) as it becomes smooth enough, but it almost felt too powerful, didn't get much exercise. Every time I dropped it to 2 it just wasn't smooth. I have a eruo-spec 250W mid-drive with Yamaha PW motor and it is night and day vs. the X1 torque sensing. The Yamaha is smooth and usable in all PAS levels . So I read Brad's post above about the different torque sensing recipe above 50% and wondering if that's the issue. But I don't have Ludi and EL34 seems to use sub 50% PAS almost exclusively and finds it usable. Almost wondering if I got a Ludi torque sensing recipe (assuming there is one) in a non-Ludi M600, or maybe my torque sensor is bad. A bit bummed at this point but encouraging to see it's usable for EL34.

      #63
      kite_rider
      I assume EL34 is using 5 power levels when he talks about using level 3 at most. I'm set up for 9 power levels and am usually in either level 4 or 5; never any higher. For me, the torque sensor is way to touchy; meaning a big difference in motor power between an easy pedal stroke and a hard pedal stroke. Problem is, that on technical terrain (big rocks) it's hard to modulate this. I'm beginning to think my issues are related to the Ludi upgrade. I now regret going this way and would like to go back to 'stock' if possible.
      Nope, I have my NON LUDI - X1 set to 9 levels of assist
      I use 1, 2 and 3 only
      I also removed the throttle from my X1

      I knew there was no reason to have LUDI on the X1 and so I did not order it
      1200 miles later on my X1 and I am still very happy with it

      I never ride my BBSHD bike now that I have the X1
      Last edited by EL34; 06-14-2020, 08:23 AM.

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      • kite_rider
        kite_rider commented
        Editing a comment
        I knew you were non-Ludi from your other comments and am starting to regret that I purchased this option . Am impressed that levels 1-3 cover all your climbing needs. How much vertical do you tend to cover on a typical ride?

      #64
      Just reprogram the power levels. No need to downgrade the controller. It can be done in programming. You can even set up multiple power curves and settings as different profiles for different scenarios. You will want that top end power again, after getting used to it for a year or two.

      Comment


        #65
        Originally posted by Defjr333 View Post
        Just reprogram the power levels. No need to downgrade the controller. It can be done in programming. You can even set up multiple power curves and settings as different profiles for different scenarios. You will want that top end power again, after getting used to it for a year or two.
        You can't program the M600 Luna X1 motor

        Comment


          #66
          So newer "higher end" system is a step back in many ways to the BBSHD. Unless you absolutely need torque sensing, I can not see why anyone would choose it over the BBSHD. I guess they all have their proper uses, but I will stick with my bbshd with ludi controller.

          Comment


            #67
            Originally posted by Defjr333 View Post
            So newer "higher end" system is a step back in many ways to the BBSHD. Unless you absolutely need torque sensing, I can not see why anyone would choose it over the BBSHD. I guess they all have their proper uses, but I will stick with my bbshd with ludi controller.
            I have a Luna Wolf battery - Luna BBSHD bike and the X1.
            Got that bike first

            Now I don't want a bike with an external motor drooping down and a battery stuck into the frame

            The X1 blows away my BBSHD bike in looks and features
            There's no need for the huge power my BBSHD bike puts out an a mountain bike like the X1

            Comment


            • Defjr333
              Defjr333 commented
              Editing a comment
              Can totally understand the hanging down of motor and ugly battery pack stuck into frame, but that's the frame/ bike. Not the motor. My bbshd is inside the frame, and batt packs are hidden. Just seems the x1 does not tick enough boxes for ME, may be helpful for others

            #68
            Originally posted by Defjr333 View Post
            So newer "higher end" system is a step back in many ways to the BBSHD. Unless you absolutely need torque sensing, I can not see why anyone would choose it over the BBSHD. I guess they all have their proper uses, but I will stick with my bbshd with ludi controller.
            I wouldn't say it's a step back in many ways; just one way. It's also a step forward in some ways (thermal monitoring, torque sensor). Cadence sensing doesn't really work in technical off-road settings. You can use throttle, but torque sensing is like integrating the throttle into the pedals. More force = more throttle.

            The lack of programmability is a real disappointment, but it's part of Bafang's move to CAN. I think we'll see more of this from their integrated drives.

            Comment


            • kite_rider
              kite_rider commented
              Editing a comment
              I would have thought their move to the CAN bus would make external programming even easier. When VW/Audi went to CAN the programmable options expanded dramatically with the VAG-COM tool. I bought the X1 assuming I'd be able to program like I do on my BBS-02 and was sorely disappointed when to learn that I couldn't.

            #69
            Defjr333
            If that bike in your avatar image is the type of bike you like, then no, the X1 is not for you.

            Comment


              #70
              Originally posted by EL34 View Post
              My 1 x 11 Sram XX1 29'er carbon wheel set weighs 9.17 pounds
              Hey, El - Just wondering what the spacing on those 29s were, and if you tried to shoehorn them on your X1? You know, for giggles. I recall there was someone on the support thread who was going to try 29s, but I didn't see the follow-up.

              Comment


                #71
                Originally posted by Hapkato View Post

                Hey, El - Just wondering what the spacing on those 29s were, and if you tried to shoehorn them on your X1? You know, for giggles. I recall there was someone on the support thread who was going to try 29s, but I didn't see the follow-up.
                I never tried a 29 inch wheel set on my X1
                The carbon wheel set I bought is 27.5 boost

                Comment


                • K442
                  K442 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I ran a 29" wheel off a different bike on the X1 for a while. It fit fine, but it is only a 29 x 2.1 or 2.2 tire... might be room for a bit more, but I'd have to swap the tire back on and make some detailed measurements to be exact. If you look at it "by the book", a 27.5" wheel + 2.8" tire is 33.1" diameter. A 29" wheel + 2.1" tire is 33.2" diameter.

                • kite_rider
                  kite_rider commented
                  Editing a comment
                  K442, good feedback. I've got a decent heavy duty set of 29er rims that I may try to retrofit on my X1. What did you do for a cassette? Use the one that came with your X1 stock wheels or have another 12 speed cassette on these wheels? I ask since when swapping wheels on other bikes I tend to spend a lot of time dialing the derailleur back in and maybe it would be faster to just swap over the same cassette (not to mention that 12 speed cassettes can be expensive too).

                #72
                Ok, not quite all done with mods yet :)

                I upgraded the display to the Luna 860C for the X1
                It's way nicer than the stock display

                Attached Files

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                  #73
                  That’s nice! I don’t see those on the website? Was it plug and play? I thought the motor had to be programmed to the display?

                  Comment


                    #74
                    Originally posted by Shawn outside View Post
                    That’s nice! I don’t see those on the website? Was it plug and play? I thought the motor had to be programmed to the display?
                    It's out of stock
                    https://lunacycle.com/m600-luna-full...able-selector/

                    It is set up for the M600 on the X1 only

                    Comment


                      #75
                      tomdav

                      I don't have any issues with the torque sensor
                      Maybe because I don't use flat pedals?

                      I pedal in circles because I am using clip less pedals and shoes
                      I am always applying power to the pedals because I pull up and push down on every rotation of the crank arms

                      That's just how I learned to pedal many years ago


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