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Shaving weight off my Luna X1 and other X1 mods

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    #76
    Another X1 mileage report:

    The X1 meter is not accurate because you cannot set a more accurate tire diameter
    You can only choose 27.5, which is not correct for the tires I have on my X1

    Starting battery voltage was 54 volts
    Ending voltage was 47.1

    The X1 meter said I did 37.8 miles
    It probably is closer to 36 miles
    My GPS said I did 33.38 miles, but that is not accurate in the mountains and in the woods where it can't get a perfect signal all the time

    Actual ride time was about 3:15
    I stopped 3 times to talk to people for about 20 minutes total

    My non Ludi X1 is set to 9 assist levels
    I used assist 1 and 2 most of the day
    I used assist level 3 for some of the short steep stuff
    The throttle has been removed on my X1 because I never used it

    Click image for larger version  Name:	BrakenLoopReport.png Views:	0 Size:	52.4 KB ID:	108291
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    Last edited by EL34; 06-21-2020, 12:11 PM.

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      #77
      I got out for a short afternoon ride today on the X1.
      I hardly ever film an uphill climb, but I did today.
      Then a downhill

      It's filmed in 1440p

      Last edited by EL34; 06-25-2020, 02:54 PM.

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        #78
        That climbing video did it for me lmao, I gave up on my deliberations and looking for alternatives and simply ordered the x1. I swear, Luna owes you commissions hahaha.

        Thank you for this very informative thread. I do have a question about your wheels (I figure, might as well order them since the bike won't be here until August and this is a must-upgrade for me).

        Looking at carbon wheel sets on Ali Express, there are lots of choices for 27.5 boost wheel sets
        110 x 15 front - 148 x 12mm rear is what the X1 has

        The rim width is one major choice and the hub/driver body is the other
        The X1 currently has a Shimano hub driver body

        A wider rim gives you a better tire footprint and I am a big fan of wide rim mountain bike wheels
        I found a carbon wheel set that has a 38mm wide rim which is what I would want
        You can get a Shimano driver or a SRAM XD driver hub
        The link that you gave is this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000286472800.html

        That actually seems to be a 37mm width with novatec hubs - has it been working well for you?

        There is also this option: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000145435045.html

        It's a 40mm width, but asymmetrical. A little cheaper, a little heavier and beefier, with FastAce (inferior?) hubs. Would that work? This is a 50lbs bike after all... I'm leaning towards the 37s from your link but I was wondering how you've felt they've been holding up on this fairly heavy bike.

        Comment


          #79
          Ali express merchants inventory comes and goes
          Here are the wheel specs I ordered
          You can usually find the same item from several merchants on Ali Express

          27.5er carbon BOOST wheels
          38.5mm wide tubeless MTB wheelset
          straight pull UD AM DH ENDOURO
          MTB Bike Carbon Wheels


          I made sure I got heavy duty spokes instead of flat bladed light weight spokes
          My rims were 40mm wide, the 38.5 must be the inside dimension

          That wheel set you linked to will be ok
          It pays to ask the merchant questions and nail them down on exactly what you want
          My wheel set took about a week to get built before they shipped them
          Last edited by EL34; 06-30-2020, 04:15 AM.

          Comment


            #80
            Thanks for posting your track log EL. It helps me understand your battery use relative to your terrain. Now that you changed out your display it's still tricky for me to calibrate your voltage level to the % level that I've got my stock display set to. I'll try to notice the voltage level at the end of my next ride. I'll also see if I can dig up a log with a similar elevation profile as yours. I think that is a better indication of battery use than just mileage.

            As a comparison - more or less - here is a ride I did last week on my stock X1 with the Ludicrous controller. No throttle was used and the PAS was set between 2 and 4 for the whole ride. I didn't record my voltage levels, but the battery was 100% when I took off and I limped back in at around 14% of battery which is as low as I care to go. I'd love to compare this ride to the same bike with "non-Ludicrous" to see how it affects the battery.

            One other note - I've been a critic of the jerky torque sensor. As a fix, sort of, I've just been using a taller gear and that seems to smooth everything out. I've got mixed feelings about this approach since it seems like it's putting more strain on the motor and I've always been of the mindset that these motors like to spin fast. But this 'fix' does make the bike run smoother.

            Click image for larger version

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            • bradleyland
              bradleyland commented
              Editing a comment
              Going up a gear just reduces the mechanical advantage of the cranks/motor, so you're basically masking the variation in torque output. The jerkiness of the PAS is a consequence of the Ludi mod. It's a shunt mod, so it just doubles the output torque for any given scenario. So for example, if you were on a non-Ludi bike in PAS level X and inputing Y amount of torque at the pedals, the system would output Z motor torque. With the Ludicrous mod, everything remains the same, but Z is doubled.

              PAS setting affects motor torque in two ways: sensitivity to rider torque input, limiting output current. As you go up in PAS levels, the system becomes more sensitive to rider torque. That is, the same amount of input torque will result in more motor output. When you combine this with the increased current limit, then layer in the 2x factor from Ludicrous, you get a pretty steep torque ramp.

              For some reason, I don't have any trouble with the response from the Ludicrous M600, but I understand why someone else might. I do find it really disappointing that Bafang has chosen to make this motor non-programmable though. The ability to tweak the torque sensor sensitivity would be a huge benefit to a lot of riders.

            • kite_rider
              kite_rider commented
              Editing a comment
              Well said Bradlyland, I agree with your analysis regarding power/torque on this feature. If I was buying my bike again I *think* I'd skip the Ludi option, but even that is hard for me to say since I've not actually ridden an X1 without Ludi. Luna should have figured out a way to include an 'on/off' capability - even an awkward HW or SW method of some sort - that way people could have at least a minimal level of self tuning. I fear I might just be prematurely wearing out my running gear (by overloading the motor) to get the torque response I'm looking for.

            #81
            Here's my results from last Sunday's ride
            My battery voltage started at 53.8 volts
            My battery voltage ended at 47.1 volts

            Non Ludi X1
            PAS was one and two most of the day
            PAS three on the steeper stuff and then right back to one or two

            I am guessing my battery percentage was some where around 30% range at the end of the ride
            I will try and remember to change it back on the meter at the end so I can see the %

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            Attached Files
            Last edited by EL34; 06-30-2020, 07:58 AM.

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              #82
              kite_rider
              That battery % figure is pretty much a useless number
              I just switched my 860C meter over to show % instead of voltage

              The battery voltage was 53.2 volt and it showed as 100%

              You can charge the X1 battery up to 54.6 volts (13 cells x 4.2v = 54.6)

              So if 53.2 volts is 100%, what is 54.6 volts?

              Comment


              • kite_rider
                kite_rider commented
                Editing a comment
                Agree that the % is flaky. On the voltage I think I've noticed that the ending voltage creeps higher after the bike sits a while vs right at the end of the ride. In any case, I'll start tracking that with the rides. Curious if the lighter wheels are adding much to your range. I like the idea of making my X1 more nimble, mine is sort of tank and I'm reluctant to get much air on it due to the heavy feel.

              #83
              Here is another track log with a similar amount of elevation gain (but about half the mileage). I still need to calibrate your voltage numbers to my battery %, this ride consumed about 65% of the battery - going from 95% to 30% at the end of the ride. Again, stock X1 with Ludicrous using power assist 2-4 and no throttle.
              Click image for larger version

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                #84
                Not sure about the wheel weight and range?
                Could be a factor, don't know?
                I did drop 5 pounds, of wheel weight with the carbon wheel set

                I weight under 150 pounds, so maybe that also?

                I ride clipped in and that is way more efficient than flat pedals
                So that is another factor
                Plus my X1 is Non Ludi

                All that stuff adds up

                Comment


                  #85
                  Chiming in on battery usage and question on rear shock:

                  I need to get rid of this POS rear shock. I would like a coil to smooth out the chatter and have a more linear feel. Anyone else gone to a coil? Recommendations? Can I go 210x57? I saw somewhere one guy had put on a fox coil but cannot seem to find that. Im 6'4" and 190, running the stock shock at max PSI is not working out.

                  As for battery: Did 20 miles and 3500 feet of climbing last week. Avg speed 13mph, 1:28 moving time. Battery started at 83% and ran her down to 13%. Didnt look at actual voltage. I was trying to make ridge top and back before I lost light for the day so I ran in PAS level 6 to cover some ground. I run the 750w (non ludi) with a 38t ring and flat pedals. This bike isnt near as fast or powerful as my bbshd on this particular climb (its a 5000+ to the peak) and its not looking like I will be able to do my full 40 mile 6k foot loop with battery to spare like I did on the bbshd.

                  Carbon wheels on order. (50mm external, 45mm internal) with novatec hubs dt champion spokes. $580 shipped via paypal.

                  Also, who would be interested in some 155/160 cranks if I can talk a machinest into making them? Proprietary spline is such BS. Thats an easy way to drop another 2lbs off this bike. Tired of the pedal strikes.

                  Comment


                  • bradleyland
                    bradleyland commented
                    Editing a comment
                    You can use a 210mm shock, but you have to flip the rear mounting point.

                    IMO, you may not need to go coil. The stock shock has very limited damping adjustment and Rockshox most basic damper. An upgrade to a more adjustable air shock might get you where you need to be without the weight of a coil shock.

                    Lekkie is ramping up production of 160mm cranks for the proprietary M600 splines.

                  • phatty
                    phatty commented
                    Editing a comment
                    bradleyland where can I find more info on the lekkie cranks? I prefer coil for the smoother ride in the chatter. I ended up ordering the vivid r2c with 550lb spring. Guess we will see

                  • GGnAZ
                    GGnAZ commented
                    Editing a comment
                    The 50mm external width wheel is probably not going to fit in the rear of the X1 frame. My 40mm wide wheels make the tire rub ever so slightly already. Rockshox super deluxe is also an option, found only in 210x55mm.

                  #86
                  Originally posted by phatty View Post
                  Chiming in on battery usage and question on rear shock:

                  I need to get rid of this POS rear shock. I would like a coil to smooth out the chatter and have a more linear feel. Anyone else gone to a coil? Recommendations? Can I go 210x57? I saw somewhere one guy had put on a fox coil but cannot seem to find that. Im 6'4" and 190, running the stock shock at max PSI is not working out.

                  As for battery: Did 20 miles and 3500 feet of climbing last week. Avg speed 13mph, 1:28 moving time. Battery started at 83% and ran her down to 13%. Didnt look at actual voltage. I was trying to make ridge top and back before I lost light for the day so I ran in PAS level 6 to cover some ground. I run the 750w (non ludi) with a 38t ring and flat pedals. This bike isnt near as fast or powerful as my bbshd on this particular climb (its a 5000+ to the peak) and its not looking like I will be able to do my full 40 mile 6k foot loop with battery to spare like I did on the bbshd.

                  Carbon wheels on order. (50mm external, 45mm internal) with novatec hubs dt champion spokes. $580 shipped via paypal.

                  Also, who would be interested in some 155/160 cranks if I can talk a machinest into making them? Proprietary spline is such BS. Thats an easy way to drop another 2lbs off this bike. Tired of the pedal strikes.
                  On the pedals:
                  someone on here bought a set of pedal taps and cut off the cranks. I might do that as well.

                  on the shock:
                  I bought a new shock for the rear but have not had time to install it. I went through worldwide Cyclery and they were awesome. There was no way I was going to keep the rear shock. Iā€™m 6ā€™3ā€ and weight 240. My choices were fox or Ohlins. They set it up based on my weight and what Terrain I mostly ride ie enduro, fire roads, single track....I have used Ohlins for Mx stuff and I really think they have quality products.

                  Comment


                  • phatty
                    phatty commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I've run ZBROZ racing shocks on my snowmobiles for years, been trying to talk them into building a bike shock. Ohlins are quality shocks for sure just $$$$, but you get what you pay for.
                    What shock and size did you end up getting? I ordered a rockshox vivid r2c with 550lb spring last night.

                  #87
                  GGnAZ
                  My 40mm carbon rims don't rub with the stock X1 Maxxis tires

                  Comment


                    #88
                    Regarding the Lekkie cranks mentioned earlier, I dropped them a note asking for clarifications, and this is what they wrote back.

                    These wild rumors you have heard may be true.... but they are a wee way away at this point!
                    We are still in research stage, trying to find out exactly what spline they run. Once we are confident in the design we will start manufacturing them but it will months away and there are no promises.
                    But yes, it's on our list, and watch this space.
                    So, there might be aftermarket options on the horizon, but not quite yet.

                    Comment


                      #89
                      Another X1 mileage report

                      The X1's meter mileage is not correct because you can't set an exact wheel size
                      So I set up a meter on the front wheel and input the actual wheel circumference into that meter

                      The X1 - 860C meter said it was 35.6 miles
                      The ride was actually 33.4 miles as per the meter I set up
                      After checking the mileage on two rides I can say that multiplying the X1's mileage by .93 8 gives me a more accurate trip mileage
                      This would vary by tire size and air pressure, so a rollout to find the exact circumference with you on the bike is the best way to set up a meter

                      Of course the GPS I carried is way off because GPS sucks in the mountains and on zig zaggy terrain under a full canopy of trees
                      The GPs Mileage said the ride was 31.67 miles

                      My battery voltage started at 53.4 volts
                      My battery voltage ended at 47 volts which the meter said was 34%

                      Non Ludi X1
                      40 tooth chain ring
                      PAS was one and two most of the day
                      PAS three on the steeper stuff and then right back to one or two

                      Here's what the GPS recorded

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                        #90
                        Hi I am looking to get quality headset for the bike I am building my own could someone tell me what size are the headset? There are so many type like integrated semi integrated etc....

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