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    New old guy

    Just dropping in to say hi from the Mendocino coast. I've been checking out all these electric bikes last year or so. I finally decided to jump in and build one! Got a TSDZ2 kit coming for my first ever Ebike build. I will be poking around and asking questions, so thanks for having me.

    #2
    Greetings, and welcome to the group. There's not a lot of info on the TSDZ2 motor here, but you've probably also come across the detailed discussion on it over on the Endless Sphere forum.
    BBSHD/BBS02B builds: IGH 1 2 3 4 5 6

    Comment


      #3
      I assume in your research you also considered the Bafang BBS's? If so I would guess others as well as me would like to hear what swayed you to the TSD. I briefly looked at them but Bafang support is a little thinner than I would like it and the TSD seemed to be almost non existent so I didn't really keep them in the running..

      Comment


        #4
        Thanks ncmired, I did see that there are several huge threads on it over there on the endless sphere forums.

        ​​​​​​73eldo, I actually chose the TSDZ2 because they offer a coaster brake version! I just finished building this three speed coaster brake bike that I am using to loose weight and get in shape. The coaster brake version doesn't have a throttle at all so you gotta pedal to go. Also supposedly the tourqe sensing capabilities make it feel supernatural (pun intended) I am going to call it the bionic bike. Hopefully it comes out how I am expecting or close anyway. The reports I have read sound good. Basically this is going to be my long distance capable (I live four miles uphill out of town) exercise bike. I have another bike for the BBSHD or maybe even a cyclone drive! I don't know really I'm just getting into this. The coaster version of the TSDZ2 also seems like it should be a pretty simple system to start with. I hope so anyway.
        Last edited by JDXX; 02-05-2021, 05:43 PM.

        Comment


          #5
          Coaster brake is a good reason. Keep us posted on the progress. I'm sure others here would like to hear how it works out.

          Does anyone know how mechanically those differ than a bbs or cyclone that makes the coaster brake work? Seems like that would maybe also allow regen?

          I currently live at the top of a hill too and I can say for sure dealing with electrical range anxiety is much easier than the physical version. Before the e bike the thought of a mile long climb to get home really held me back or more accurately made me not even go out and try. Note that if you do manage to kill the battery that climb seems 10x longer and harder because of the literal dead weight you are now having to haul.

          Comment


            #6
            Yeah coaster brake electric bicycle! I built this bike with the coaster brake wheel because it was fairly inexpensive compared to the cost of having one built with a Shimano SG-3D55 which is the disc brake version of their three speed.

            Now that I've been riding it a bit I really enjoying the nostalgic feeling of the coaster brake. I was online looking for a BBSHD for another bike I am working on when I came across the coaster version of the TSDZ2. I just knew it was ment to be.

            Besides programing I believe the difference that makes the coaster brake version work is the simple absence of a one way bearing.


            Comment


              #7
              I own a BBSHD, and a TSDZ2 guest bike. They "feel" different. But performance as far as pedaling goes is similar. You choose the level of assist you want either way.
              The thing to be aware of on the coaster brake is that it doesn't have the cooling capacity of a disc brake. They can be overheated, and the higher speed, and rapid return to speed an Ebike provides can make this an issue. But riding style can be moderated to account for this. If you just use it to assist normal riding it should be OK.
              The original mountain bikes were heavy cruisers and newspaper bikes with coaster brakes. The first downhill races were known as the "Repack" because they had to replace the burnt grease in the brakes every run.
              If you need to control speed going down hill with the brake use a good front disc. I like an Avid BB7 180/185mm cable disc with EBC Gold metallic pads. With a rear disc you would use the rear brake, but with a coaster brake you're looking for trouble.
              I certainly hope you aren't building an E bike with no front brake.
              Last edited by Retrorockit; 02-06-2021, 09:30 AM.

              Comment


                #8
                Yep! poor brakes=problems. Major cause of accidents, speed/control issues.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Is the TZD only assist? No throttle so that is why it can coaster brake? No throttle means you don't have the issue of the motor going faster than the pedals?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Ahh I should have clarified, I have a disc brake on the front. One off disc brake fork I found on eBay.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by 73Eldo View Post
                      Is the TZD only assist? No throttle so that is why it can coaster brake? No throttle means you don't have the issue of the motor going faster than the pedals?
                      No, the TSDZ2 can have a throttle, the coaster brake version has no one way bearing and no throttle or walk assist capabilities.

                      ​​​​​Mine should be flashed with the open source firmware from the supplier so I am sure I can screw with the settings to do whatever. Not that I know what I'm doing, supposedly the supplier has it somewhat set up for me.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I got my TSDZ2 w/o a throttle, and then decided to add one. It's a big deal. New controller inside the motor and rewire the bike. For coaster brake the PAS system is nice because the power quits when you back off the pedals. It should be nice. Just realize the TSDZ2 is a 350W motor designed for places where that's the legal limit. When hopped up to 750W it doesn't have the ability to reject all the heat it can produce if run hard for a long time. Defifnitely not like a BBSHD in that regard.
                        MTB guys in Europe have some cooling mods they do (including one from me, IDK if anyone else has tried it yet).
                        Last edited by Retrorockit; 02-06-2021, 05:48 PM.

                        Comment


                        • JDXX
                          JDXX commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I would sure be interested to hear what you and others have done to deal with the heat build up. One thing I have going for me is that it is always relatively cool here.

                        • Retrorockit
                          Retrorockit commented
                          Editing a comment
                          The problem is there is a 1/4" air gap between the aluminum cover and the armature of the motor.So no air flow or conductive path for the heat to escape
                          1-The most common mod is to stick TIM pads all over the armature, and end cap of the motor under the cover.Guys with temperature sensors installed
                          ( board level modding required) report that this is sufficient. The thermal pads come in various thermal efficiencies. 6 W/m is normal grade and 12 W/m costs
                          more. The thickness of the TIM pads will be up to 1/4" in places. The cover is only near the armature 1/2 way around.
                          2- The method I devised after doing some measuring is to install a piece of 3" OD 1/8" wall (2.75"ID) Aluminum tubing all the way around the armature.
                          A length of 1 1/4" is good for this. A slot 1/4" wide needs to be cut to provide clearance for a capacitor on the controller. The ends need to be beveled as required, and break all sharp edges also.
                          This does a couple other useful things. It allows for thermal expansion of the ring as it heats and cools. It also allows the ring to conform to the 1mm taper inside the aluminum cover, so a little extra room around the capacitor doesn't hurt anything.Test fit dry with the ring all the way down against the base of the motor.
                          Then install 1"x2" 3mm thermal pads between the armature screws (4pcs). Since it's 1/2 as thick I used the cheap stuff. The actual space measures 2.5mm but compression improves the perfomance of TIM.You might need a pair of external snap ring pliers to spread the ring over the TIM w/o damaging the soft material. the TIM pads allow expansion movement, and conform to the rough surface of the armature.
                          Apply at thin coating of thermal grease ( cheap stuff again) inside the cover, and brush a little around the lip at the base of the motor for a 2nd heat path into the main casting there. This should help cool the part of the armature away from the cover.
                          When the final installation of the cover occurs it will be much tighter, and may even need to be tapped down into place with a block of wood, and a mallet.
                          Since you test fitted it before, you will know this is just the TIM pads being compressed, and not a mechanical interference.
                          The thermal conductivity of aluminum is 240 W/m so it allows meaningful transfer of heat across the length and width of the heat spreader.
                          I don't have a thermal sensor because it eliminates the possibility of having a throttle installed, which in urban riding I feel 100% power NOW is a safety feature. But if you have an infrared thermometer, a cold cover means the heat is staying in the motor, a warm cover means cooling is taking place to the degree that it's hotter than the surrounding air.
                          3- Some people install finned heatsinks on the cover. They won't do much unless mod #1, or mod#2 are performed first.
                          To get the material for this I went to a bulk metal seller. They sell by the pound and charge a nominal fee for extra cuts. I think it was about $6 for 3 pieces to prototype this. A machine shop would probably want $40 for the same piece of metal.
                          I think it took me less time to build and install this than it did to write this comment.
                          Last edited by Retrorockit; 02-08-2021, 09:11 AM.

                        • Retrorockit
                          Retrorockit commented
                          Editing a comment
                          There is one more method to cool these that has been used. It's messy but it has some merit.
                          The parts that fails from overheating are the permanent magnets in the rotor of the motor.The above methods only cool this indirectly by reducing the temperature of the environment inside the motor.

                          Filling the motor housing with ATF to a level high enough to wet the rotor will remove heat directly from that part, at some loss of mechanical efficiency due to drag in the fluid.The heat will be transferred through the fluid to the cover to be dissipated there.

                          Basically anything you do will be better than what Tong Sheng provided.
                          Last edited by Retrorockit; 02-08-2021, 12:46 PM.

                        #13
                        Wow Retrorocket, that was a lot of good information. Which led me to the endless sphere TSDZ2 hardware temperature control thread which I read in it's entirety. I only saw the one post regarding running ATF in the case. Would like to see more on that.

                        I did order the aluminum heatsink shims from member scianiac and I will be looking for materials to make a sleeve. Now I need to figure out what thermal grease to get and find the thermal pads.

                        Thanks for your time on all of that buddy.

                        Comment


                          #14
                          The concern with the ATF is how the insulation on the wiring will react to the oil. The electronic motor controller is inside the same cover. It will definitely penetrate into the wires. If the insulation swells or dissolves there could be consequences.
                          The thermal pads are common from electronic or computer suppliers. A 100x100x3mm sheet will do the job twice as far as the sleeve method goes. The thermal grease is from similar sources. There are very expensive silver thermal greases for overclocking, but the basic white oxide stuff which comes in larger tubes should be OK for this purpose. Newegg or Digikey should have what you need.

                          Comment


                            #15
                            Here is a link to the TSDZ2 forum instructions for this.
                            https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...49948#p1649948

                            Here is the only photo of the TSDZ2 heatsink mod.Click image for larger version  Name:	001.JPG Views:	0 Size:	802.6 KB ID:	126207
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by Retrorockit; 4 weeks ago.

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                            • Retrorockit
                              Retrorockit commented
                              Editing a comment
                              This pic. got 207 views at Endlesssphere TSDZ2 forum since yesterday.
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