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BBSHD: motor cuts off when using throttle and then pedaling

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    BBSHD: motor cuts off when using throttle and then pedaling

    Recently got a Bafang BBSHD from Luna Cycle with their 'hot rod' programming.

    PAS mode works fine, and the throttle works perfectly without pedaling, but once I try to pedal along with the engaged throttle, the motor cuts out dramatically (this was not the case with my BBS02, and throttle-pedaling was my favorite way to ride).

    Luna Cycle told me this is normal behavior and that you can only throttle and pedal at the same time when in PAS mode. However, when pedaling in PAS mode, engaging the throttle makes the motor cut out as well. I told this to LC and they recommended I get the programming cable and 'figure out adjustments to suit my riding needs' lol

    Is there any way around this behavior or ideas why this is happening even in PAS mode?

    Thank you!

    #2
    Which display are you using?

    Comment


    • zst
      zst commented
      Editing a comment
      Luna Full Color Display DPC-14

    #3
    No, that ain't right. When you are pedaling along in pas mode and hit the throttle the throttle should take over from pas and zoom! But you are saying when you hit the throttle the motor dies?

    Comment


    • zst
      zst commented
      Editing a comment
      Yeah, and OPtimus Prime makes a good point that it may be the throttle taking over but just at a low voltage, thus feeling like it is cutting out. However! That doesn't solve the problem that when I just throttle (without PAS) and then start pedaling the motor cuts out completely (voltage drops to 0).

    #4
    I have a bike and a trike, both with BBS02 motors. The throttles on them act differently, even though both motor controllers have been loaded with the same program (by me). On the bike, the throttle has always been very smooth and progressive. As I twist the throttle control, it feels like the motor goes from zero to full power in 100 even increments over the full range of motion of the twist control. The throttle acts this way BOTH in PAS 0 and in all PAS steps 1-9. I can be pedaling in any PAS step and gently feed in just the amount of throttle I need, without any interruption in power flow to the motor.

    On the trike, the throttle has two different "personalities", and sounds like what the OP is describing. If I am NOT pedaling, the throttle works exactly the same as on my bike - very smooth and progressive over the full travel of the twist control. BUT, when I am pedaling in PAS, it acts totally different. As I start to twist the throttle, the motor cuts out, but the throttle does not take over immediately. I have to continue to twist the throttle to about 50% of full travel, at which time the motor suddenly comes to life at 100% power. There is no point at which I can have a smooth blending of the PAS power and the throttle power - it is one or the other, but not both.

    So, two different BBSO2 motors, same twist throttle control on both, same program loaded in both motor controllers, and totally different throttle action. I can't figure it out.

    Somebody will ask about the display, but it is not a factor. I have 3 different displays: a C963, a DPC-14, and a 750c. I have swapped all 3 displays around on the two bikes, and they don't have any effect on the differing throttle action. It's got me stumped. If it wasn't such a pain, I would swap the twist controls between the two bikes, to see if that makes a difference. Perhaps there is some mechanical difference in the two throttles.

    Comment


      #5
      Since I was able to get my hands on a windows machine I have been having all sorts of fun with the programming! I was able to get programs from Bagang, em3ev, Karl, etc and try them out along with modifying them myself. Keeping in mind that I am programming a cruiser used on bike paths mostly, anyone else's prefeeences might be different. I found the Luna programming to be the least desirable with its notchy all or nothing throttle and a pas setup that is hard to pedal along with. Strangely enough I found that the basic Bafang settings are the best beginning point to then tailor to your needs. It's pretty conservative and I guess the easiest on the motor and running gear. If you want long term reliability this is where you need to be.

      So I don't know what's up with the op's motor but for a lot of reasons I agree with Luna when they say get a cable and set it up to your preference!
      Last edited by OptimusPrime; 05-18-2017, 09:25 AM.

      Comment


      • cajk
        cajk commented
        Editing a comment
        I've got all the programs you mentioned loaded into my Windows laptop. Both of my BBS02 motors came to me with "custom programming", so I have never actually seen the basic Bafang factory program. Do you know of any place where I can download the .el file for the factory program? I'd like to add it to my collection.

      • OptimusPrime
        OptimusPrime commented
        Editing a comment
        That was actually the easiest one to get. It was included in one of the files that came in the downloaded package from Penoff. Actually there were two , the one from Bafang and the one Penoff made up for himself.

      • cajk
        cajk commented
        Editing a comment
        (BIG HEADSLAP) Thank you! I knew there were two .el files included with the Penoff download, but I thought the one labeled "DefaultProfile" was just something he made up to fill the blanks. I didn't realize it is the actual factory default Bafang program file. Thanks again!
        Last edited by cajk; 05-20-2017, 01:49 PM. Reason: Typo

      #6
      Guys, when you are in PAS and apply throttle, throttle overrides PAS. That means current will drop to throttle command, if that's lower. This can FEEL like the motor is cutting out, but it's doing what you told it to, by applying low throttle. Small throttle level in a trike would feel a lot more like a cutout than on a bike, since the rolling load is higher. But the same control scheme explains both behaviors. No difference there, it's just a different use case.
      Fabrication is fun! Build something today. Show someone. Let them help. Inspire and share. Spread the desire.

      Comment


      • OptimusPrime
        OptimusPrime commented
        Editing a comment
        Zst, it should not behave that way. The first place to look is in the programming. I suggest you get that programming cable on order or get a trouble ticket going and let Luna take care of it for you.

      • OptimusPrime
        OptimusPrime commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm sorry, I see you already contacted Luna and they say it's normal. I personally doubt that. But I can't confirm it for you because I have a BBSO2. Can we get someone with a BBSHD to please try this scenario and post please?

      • zst
        zst commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks, Optimus! I'll get a programming cable and see about getting it working.

      #7
      I am having similar problems with my wife's new BBSHD. Did you have any luck figuring out how to fix it?

      Comment


      • jcobreros
        jcobreros commented
        Editing a comment
        As far as I know, there's no fix out there yet. Apparently Luna has figured out a way to fix it, but they are not telling anybody how. I personally think this behavior is enabled in a setting that is not documented, and it's not present in the programming software that we all have. My feeling is that there's a parameter somewhere (Like 0x16 0xB 0xXX to set PAS level), that enables and disables this behavior, but It's hard to figure it out without more information.
        I would encourage anybody with information to please please leak it for the rest of us.

      #8
      I purchased my first BBSHD 1 year ago, I did not have this issue. I just purchased another BBSHD, same display, same battery, same programming (at least I saved the settings from my initial motor, into a ".el" file and then flashed it onto the new motor...) and the issue I just encountered was the same as zst / cajk.
      I figured it out - at least for me, so I figured I'd post and maybe it can help you as well.

      Fortunately I only did about 4 Google searches (praise God! haha) and something triggered me to try and program the settings again...to no avail. So I opened Karl's guide on my PC, since I was there and searched for throttle... looked at the program and it said that my "slow-start" setting was at '7' ! I knew this was incorrect, as I recalled setting this to a lower number, namely a 3 or 4 to get the response on my initial motor/bike...did this months ago and it took me several iterations then... So, I set this bad boy ("slow-start") to '3' and all is well for me. (setting this number lower risks the motor and too high, is jerky - at least this is what Karl's guide states and I believe, I / we're experiencing the jerky response)

      I must have not saved the (whole) profile correctly, that is from my initial motor, despite it (used the Luna software) creating a full ".el" file? Whatever the case, I know the settings and have them recorded.

      Hope this helps!
      Last edited by E-biker_Joe; 01-29-2018, 11:27 PM.

      Comment


        #9
        Originally posted by E-biker_Joe View Post
        I purchased my first BBSHD 1 year ago, I did not have this issue. I just purchased another BBSHD, same display, same battery, same programming (at least I saved the settings from my initial motor, into a ".el" file and then flashed it onto the new motor...) and the issue I just encountered was the same as zst / cajk.
        I figured it out - at least for me, so I figured I'd post and maybe it can help you as well.

        Fortunately I only did about 4 Google searches (praise God! haha) and something triggered me to try and program the settings again...to no avail. So I opened Karl's guide on my PC, since I was there and searched for throttle... looked at the program and it said that my "slow-start" setting was at '7' ! I knew this was incorrect, as I recalled setting this to a lower number, namely a 3 or 4 to get the response on my initial motor/bike...did this months ago and it took me several iterations then... So, I set this bad boy ("slow-start") to '3' and all is well for me. (setting this number lower risks the motor and too high, is jerky - at least this is what Karl's guide states and I believe, I / we're experiencing the jerky response)

        I must have not saved the (whole) profile correctly, that is from my initial motor, despite it (used the Luna software) creating a full ".el" file? Whatever the case, I know the settings and have them recorded.

        Hope this helps!
        I think that this is not about the jerky throttle, but about the "PAS override throttle" issue.
        The new controllers do not allow throttle (unless at max throttle on off style) whilst pedaling.
        You can be on the throttle, but as soon as the pedal assist kicks in the throttle is killed.
        You can then push the throttle to max to get max power, this gives a jerky ride.

        On all controllers with stock programming the controller can feel jerky until you change the mode to current from speed/voltage and also maybe dial in the sensitivity.

        I had both these issues and fixed the jerky throttle but still have issues with the pas override.

        I now have another really strange issue with this controller which I will have to post separately about.

        Comment


          #10
          Originally posted by eBik View Post

          I think that this is not about the jerky throttle, but about the "PAS override throttle" issue.
          The new controllers do not allow throttle (unless at max throttle on off style) whilst pedaling.
          You can be on the throttle, but as soon as the pedal assist kicks in the throttle is killed.
          You can then push the throttle to max to get max power, this gives a jerky ride.

          On all controllers with stock programming the controller can feel jerky until you change the mode to current from speed/voltage and also maybe dial in the sensitivity.

          I had both these issues and fixed the jerky throttle but still have issues with the pas override.

          I now have another really strange issue with this controller which I will have to post separately about.

          Major bummer!

          When I tried this the other night, I was in my house and could only get about 1-2 pedal cycles in, through the distance of my living room and kitchen before braking. This wasn't enough time for the PAS to override / kill the throttle - which is what happened tonight after I read your response - thanks, btw.

          After testing tonight, I discovered that if I start with any partial throttle and then pedal, I can get about 2 pedal cycles/revolutions before the throttle cuts out...

          I may have to consider switching out my motor depending on the biking I want to do, unless I can get ahold of an older controller. Is this the case for the Ludicrous controller too?

          Has anyone went this route since they rely more so on "throttle assist"?

          Thanks in advance!
          Last edited by E-biker_Joe; 01-31-2018, 07:51 PM.

          Comment


            #11
            My controller has been playing up since I tried removing the grey PAS wire to enable throttle only mode. Although the last ride was trouble free.
            Might just be the connector. Or I might buy an external full sine wave converter.

            There are two solutions/hacks that I can think of without discovering how to access the extra controller settings.
            One would be to have a circuit to detect the throttle voltage and then disconnect the pas lead.

            The easier way would be to use the headlight wires to power a miniature relay which disconnects the grey PAS wire.This would fit inside the casing and the coil should be low current.
            Then you could switch PAS on or off using the headlight switch!
            I might be tempted to do this if my controller continues to behave itself.

            Comment


            • JPLabs
              JPLabs commented
              Editing a comment
              Nice thinking! Either sounds great to me. Very insightful.

            #12
            This is a very annoying problem I've tryed to solve since I got my hands on a BBSHD the very first time.
            Last edited by microlag; 02-03-2018, 04:14 PM.

            Comment


              #13
              I still need to measure the voltage at the headlight wires.
              But if its 6v then the following relay should just draw just 60mA when powered:

              https://www.maplin.co.uk/p/2a-spdt-u...ay-6v-dc-n99cz

              For £1.99 I'm tempted to go and buy one this week.

              Since bending the pins on my pas connector, my controller seems to be working again. So I would probably cut the pas wire on the controller side and maybe extend with wire, solder and heatshrink if too short. Then wire the relay contacts in the gap, solder the headlight cable to the coil and see if I have any wide heatshrink to cover it with.
              I really should go for another big ride first though, to be sure that there is nothing wrong with my controller apart from the pas connector before I start fiddling with it again.

              Product overview

              • Very small and lightweight - measures just 12.6 x 7.8 x 10.0mm and weighs only 2 grams• Plastic sealed enclosure for protection from moisture• Ideal for telecommunications, office equipment or industrial control applications• Full datasheet available from the Maplin website

              Operating Specifications

              Maximum Current:

              2000mA

              Operating Time:

              5ms

              Release Time:

              5ms

              Coil Resistance:

              100Ω

              Contact Resistance:

              100 MΩMΩ
              Last edited by eBik; 02-05-2018, 01:03 AM.

              Comment


                #14
                I ended up settling with setting "Stop Delay" (or 'Time of Stop') to '1', within the Pedal Assist tab whilst using the BafangConfigTool.exe tool.
                If it's 5 or lower, it effectively makes an ideal PAS 0, but for all PAS levels (no PAS help, but independent full-range of throttle). So I can pedal how I want, when I want, and just use the throttle to assist me and ramp it for my needs at the time. This is really what I use the most.


                " Time of Stop(x10ms): 25\25\25\25\10– This affects how quickly the drive stops after you stop pedaling. Some people report that setting this lower (as low as 5) may affect the startup delay on the throttle. If you set it to 0 the PAS system ceases to work. 25 is probably too high. This setting disables the PAS if it is set less than 5. I strongly recommend setting this to 5, especially if you want to use the PAS system without using ebrakes. If you set this less than 10 on the v2 of the BBS02 controllers then your PAS will not work properly at all. On the older BBS02v1 controllers and the BBSHD controllers you can set this as low as 5 before you start having issues with the PAS. "
                from https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/0...ing-the-bbs02/
                Attached Files

                Comment


                  #15
                  Not sure if I’m having the same issue as I do not speak the language of science. The issue I am having: I just had to replace the controller on my BBSHD. While I’m pedaling (usually in pas1-pas2) and not throttling, it seems to work as it should, but as soon as I throttle and release the PAS delays before it takes over again. This was not the case with the previous controller. I’ve tried to research but most discussed topics are in the “science language” and I don’t understand. Can anyone explain in laymen’s terms? With my previous controller I could throttle to desired speed then the PAS would take over without lag or delay. I refuse to contact luna cycle because I don’t have 3 days of talking in circles via email with their lack luster customer service. Any help would be greatly appreciated

                  Comment

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