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  • MaxXedition
    replied
    I'll jump into this older thread. I have used C02 for 20 plus years. It inflates fast. None of these useless mini pumps that take a 1000 strokes, or if they pump in both directions are are just plain hard to pump.
    C02 cartridges come in 12g, 16g and 24g sizes (why has no one mentioned this?). Use the size that is applicable to your use. Skinny road bike tires I have always used 12g cartridges. Mtn bike 26x2.0 tires I use 16g cartridges. I would think these 3-4" wide tires & 24g cartridges would be best. Sometimes it takes more than one cartridge. I carry 24g cartridges on my m/c.
    Practice at home!! At one point or another you will blow/waste a cartridge. It happens. Yes they are cold. I think I have only done presta valves, not schrader.

    Changing tubes seems to be a lost art (to do correctly). Goat heads are nasty and can ruin a tire. A tire HAS to be rubbed/felt inside by your fingers or a cloth to see what is protruding through the tire which caused the flat in the first place, or you will have an immediate follow up flat. You could have multiple goat heads (usually). They can break off on the inside yet they will protrude through again if not pulled with pliers from the exterior. ...Time consuming & probably won't happen by the side of the road. Don't forget to push down your valve stem & pull it back for no 'snake bite' flats!... All my friends have had issues running tubeless - I will stick to tubes on a bicycle. Tubeless on a m/c is good though.
    Repeated flats are usually operator error IMO.
    Flat tire/tube replacement 101.

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  • AZguy
    commented on 's reply
    FWIW for the motos I'd just get any old 12V pump from wally world or wherever and take it out of the outer plastic case and wrap it in a rag - the guts are very small and it's a very compact setup for carry that way

  • CPG
    replied
    Just searched Amazon for a cheap 12 VDC compressor, and got one (among many) that seems to be the same size as my old 52 VDC one, to fit my fatbike, and while I was at it, went all out and also got a 48-60 VDC to 12 VDC converter, for $18.00. Imay also play around and see how this compressor works off the Sur Ron's horn leads, which I'm told are 12 VDC but have never verified.

    Leave a comment:


  • CPG
    replied
    Hey I've learned more about the different (or are they the same??) expansion rates of gases and how temperture and altitude can change them (if they do??) than I had planned on. If one doesn't like what someone else posts, just move on, no need to diss others.

    My own air schemes are this:
    My bike kept in the crane, I have a 12 volt pump, not to mention (now that I think about it...) air brakes/air tank at 140 PSI, 50' of airline and an air chuck, guess I use the 12 volt as I can get it out quicker. Nothing else for that bike as it's just a town rider.

    My rocky and rough remote area (relatively) fat bike riding: nothing, tubeless and Stans seems to work, over 3500 miles, but I am pushing my luck probably. My backup plan is to start walking, Ok if not cold and have the daylight, which most of my riding with it has/is.

    The Montague (relatively skinny, tubed tires) I carry in the plane, where weight is critical: I had my first flike (flight/ride) with it last week, into an area 30 miles from the closet ranch house, and no cell service. After landing in the brush I rode up a very steep and rocky trail up a canyon for 3 miles, before realizing I had failed to bring ANY backup air or tube. Didn't need it, coulda walked out, but yesterday I loaded my kit with my usual two C02 catridges and filler (finding one wasn't the threaded end type my filler needed, oops) and a brand new tube. NO patch kit, the one time I needed it, it was very windy and getting late, and no water around to find the leak, wished I would have just had a new tube. I may throw a patch kit in just in case, they don't weigh anything.

    The plane has big fat tires, 4 PSI, think beach balls, tubeless by design, and I carry a 12 volt compressor, never used yet luckily, as I land a lot of very remote top of mountains/ridges that are rocky, also a big hole patch kit. The last ditch backup to all this is a PLB. a SAT based locater beacon, if it comes down to life or death.

    Luna used to sell a 52 VDC air compressor, I had one for several years and it was great, I even built a custom holder for it on the fattie. It quit one day, I would like to buy another, it was cheap enough, 40 or 50 bucks I think. That's what we really need, we're packing big ass batteries around already after all.

    There is this: https://www.banggood.com/IMars-Enusi...ouse=CN&ID=223 The question being, how long it would last run off 48-52 VDC as that is how I would use it. For the price, even if it worked once or twice....
    Last edited by CPG; 05-29-2022, 09:26 AM.

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  • Retrorockit
    replied
    I carry both a pump and a CO2 rig. If some punk walks off with my pump I'm OK. But you need 1 C02 to locate the leak, another to blow the tube up a little to patch it, and maybe another to finish inflating the tire. BTW I also carry a spare tube to avoid all of it. Then 1 CO2 and I'm done.
    AZ guys trick of Stan's filled inner tubes seems to have worked for the annoying pinhole leaks I would get every now and then. Mostly wire shards from blown out steel belted tires.

    Leave a comment:


  • DiggyGun
    replied
    I’ve got this one, which is screw on and has an outer protection sleeve.

    Got it from Amazon.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B017KU1D...17CBDKQWQCK8R0 Click image for larger version

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  • TNC
    replied
    Quote from Diggs Ut..."Dude - Really? No wonder others don't like to play here........"

    I'm not getting your take on that statement. AZ didn't and hasn't in my estimation had any habit of making disrespectful posts on discussion matters. Being open and frank with supportive information isn't hateful or mean. Having a difference of opinion on something like CO2 cartridges and their application is nothing to get one's shorts in a wad over. And on another note, perhaps one should look up the word "preference". While there are clearly "facts" contained in both Diggs' and AZ's comments on CO2 and pumps, a lot of it comes down to preference for one's given situation. Diggs, you stated that CO2 carts are "better than sliced bread". Well...is that wheat or white...or rye...or pumpernickel?

    Leave a comment:


  • Retrorockit
    replied
    AZ is an airplane guy, and needs to know this stuff. Putting the wrong type, or amount of gas in an airplane tire can have consequences.
    "Let's stick to the facts" was your idea Diggs. If this produced more facts than you would like that's too bad.
    "Others don't like to play here" are weasel words.No one is stopping you from going and playing with "others". I suspect there aren't very many.

    Leave a comment:


  • AZguy
    commented on 's reply
    I'm not sure what the problem is - initially I made a very simplistic point about CO2 and pressure changes with temperature when used in tires that was totally on topic, a simplistic reply was made that that response was somehow incorrect and so I got in the weeds since clearly my first comment was overly simplistic

    Is that a bad thing? I suppose the response can be moved to it's own thread if for some reason it seems inappropriate here, but it sure seemed appropriate _and_ civil to me... and who are those "others that don't like to play here"?... there are other electric bike heavy boards with folks that don't hesitate to do far less civil responses in similar cases


    Oh well... can't please everyone...

    Ride on, have fun!

  • Diggs Ut
    replied
    Originally posted by AZguy View Post

    OK, let's stick with the facts =]


    Boyles law and Charles law only apply to "ideal gasses" - which would stay gaseous all the way down to absolute zero at all pressures and temperatures. For real gasses those are only linear (straight line) approximations and the further a gas deviates from "ideal" the less well they apply.

    Gases like oxygen or nitrogen behave much closer to an ideal gas such that those approximations are plenty close enough for normal temperatures and pressures but even those gases will deviate strongly from those approximations at extremes. Those real world gases just plain aren't linear either.

    CO2 even at atmospheric pressure will condense into a solid at about -80°C vs. the ~-273°C (absolute zero) of the ideal gasses those approximations apply to so the scale is already slid by close to 200°K. Not to mention it will condense at room temperature at about 5.8MPa (~830psi absolute, ~815psi gauge) and this drops considerably at colder temperatures further offsetting the bias points in the ideal gas approximation. CO2 is quite non-linear too - it is a very curved line.

    However in the real world on top of all those deviations from ideal gas is that it is very soluble in water and when it dissolves in water that lowers the pressure a *lot* and this is likely going to have an even greater effect than the ideal gas deviations. That solubility is highly dependent on temperature and pressure and very rapidly increases with pressure and decreases very rapidly with temperature, especially when under pressure. Unless you've only used a dry gas to inflate your tires, they will have plenty of moisture in them - nature of the beast. Sealants like stans are full of water too. This will also acidify the moisture and while it's not that acidic (think soda pop acidic) and likely doesn't affect the rubber much, I'm not so sure about the sealants although I'm sure plenty of folks are using CO2 with them, but if it reduces their life at all I'm not on board.

    I've experienced this in the real world. I used to carry CO2 in my off-road vehicles - mostly so we could air way down in sand a then quickly get back up when heading back into the rocks. I've measured how much that pressure with CO2 fluctuates with elevation and temperature changes and it ain't pretty, especially where pressure deviations make a big difference like moto tires. After fighting that I stopped using CO2 in those applications. For the large off-road vehicles I got a high volume electric pump and for motos I took one of those <$20 noisy little 12V diaphragm pumps and took them out of the case - the little pump is really small, fist-sized, so very portable and even though they are very low volume they work pretty well for moto tires and would be great for bike tires if we had 12V handy (someday, someday!). That 48V one that they linked to is likely very small if you take it out of the case.



    Now for the real world of bikes

    For decades riding in the desert full of thorns and other pointy things (just about every creature in the desert is flat out mean, especially plants!) I used to accept a flat every other ride. I was using the CO2 cartridges for a year or two. When I finally graduated to fat tires (4+") they were a lot more hassle. It sometimes took more than one cartridge and when you are out of cartridges you are out of gas so you better have that pump too. And then one time I inadvertently was grabbing a cold part and got a pretty nasty frostbite since it numbed the area so quickly I didn't realize I was getting burned. So I went back to hand pumps and really came to the conclusion after going through plenty of cartridges is that the *only* advantage that the cartridges offered was that they were faster for sure. Even though the pump takes longer (and we're only talking a couple of minutes - real world) it's not a workout (I've done it in >45°C), just a lot of movement - or maybe I'm just in better shape LOL. Pumps are super reliable, will get to whatever pressure you need and does it with air vs. nasty old CO2.




    But anyway to me this is almost a silly discussion. Times have changed. More real world...



    Click image for larger version

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    Dude - Really? No wonder others don't like to play here........

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  • AZguy
    replied
    Originally posted by Diggs Ut View Post

    OK - Lets' stick to the facts. Charles Law states all gases expand with temperature at the same rate. CO2 expands no more and no less than Oxygen, Nitrogen or any other gas. It is also less reactive and corrosive than oxygen when mixed with other elements. My inflator has a thick foam sleeve over it (freezing has never been a problem) and securely threads onto the valve stem before I turn on the variable gas valve to inflate the tire. You guys can pump away with a manual pump on a hot day (never any shade when I had a flat). Your challenge with fat tires is many pumps. My challenge was pumping 75-90 psi. Either way, I'll take the CO2 inflator. Works like a dream, is tiny even with cartridges and I don't even have to raise a sweat. It's hard to believe those that don't like them have even used them. They are better than sliced bread.
    OK, let's stick with the facts =]


    Boyles law and Charles law only apply to "ideal gasses" - which would stay gaseous all the way down to absolute zero at all pressures and temperatures. For real gasses those are only linear (straight line) approximations and the further a gas deviates from "ideal" the less well they apply.

    Gases like oxygen or nitrogen behave much closer to an ideal gas such that those approximations are plenty close enough for normal temperatures and pressures but even those gases will deviate strongly from those approximations at extremes. Those real world gases just plain aren't linear either.

    CO2 even at atmospheric pressure will condense into a solid at about -80°C vs. the ~-273°C (absolute zero) of the ideal gasses those approximations apply to so the scale is already slid by close to 200°K. Not to mention it will condense at room temperature at about 5.8MPa (~830psi absolute, ~815psi gauge) and this drops considerably at colder temperatures further offsetting the bias points in the ideal gas approximation. CO2 is quite non-linear too - it is a very curved line.

    However in the real world on top of all those deviations from ideal gas is that it is very soluble in water and when it dissolves in water that lowers the pressure a *lot* and this is likely going to have an even greater effect than the ideal gas deviations. That solubility is highly dependent on temperature and pressure and very rapidly increases with pressure and decreases very rapidly with temperature, especially when under pressure. Unless you've only used a dry gas to inflate your tires, they will have plenty of moisture in them - nature of the beast. Sealants like stans are full of water too. This will also acidify the moisture and while it's not that acidic (think soda pop acidic) and likely doesn't affect the rubber much, I'm not so sure about the sealants although I'm sure plenty of folks are using CO2 with them, but if it reduces their life at all I'm not on board.

    I've experienced this in the real world. I used to carry CO2 in my off-road vehicles - mostly so we could air way down in sand a then quickly get back up when heading back into the rocks. I've measured how much that pressure with CO2 fluctuates with elevation and temperature changes and it ain't pretty, especially where pressure deviations make a big difference like moto tires. After fighting that I stopped using CO2 in those applications. For the large off-road vehicles I got a high volume electric pump and for motos I took one of those <$20 noisy little 12V diaphragm pumps and took them out of the case - the little pump is really small, fist-sized, so very portable and even though they are very low volume they work pretty well for moto tires and would be great for bike tires if we had 12V handy (someday, someday!). That 48V one that they linked to is likely very small if you take it out of the case.



    Now for the real world of bikes

    For decades riding in the desert full of thorns and other pointy things (just about every creature in the desert is flat out mean, especially plants!) I used to accept a flat every other ride. I was using the CO2 cartridges for a year or two. When I finally graduated to fat tires (4+") they were a lot more hassle. It sometimes took more than one cartridge and when you are out of cartridges you are out of gas so you better have that pump too. And then one time I inadvertently was grabbing a cold part and got a pretty nasty frostbite since it numbed the area so quickly I didn't realize I was getting burned. So I went back to hand pumps and really came to the conclusion after going through plenty of cartridges is that the *only* advantage that the cartridges offered was that they were faster for sure. Even though the pump takes longer (and we're only talking a couple of minutes - real world) it's not a workout (I've done it in >45°C), just a lot of movement - or maybe I'm just in better shape LOL. Pumps are super reliable, will get to whatever pressure you need and does it with air vs. nasty old CO2.




    But anyway to me this is almost a silly discussion. Times have changed. More real world...

    I moved on to using tubeless sealant aend even riding in the AZ desert haven't had a flat in >9000mi over several years (touch wood) so just leaving a good pump (as mentioned I'm a big fan of lezyne) strapped to the bike frame seems appropriate, especially considering how seldom it sees use - almost always just to help a nice young lady with a flat. Click image for larger version

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    Ride on!


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  • Diggs Ut
    replied
    Originally posted by AZguy View Post
    CO2 is one of the worst gasses to inflate tires with too. It changes pressure with heat
    OK - Lets' stick to the facts. Charles Law states all gases expand with temperature at the same rate. CO2 expands no more and no less than Oxygen, Nitrogen or any other gas. It is also less reactive and corrosive than oxygen when mixed with other elements. My inflator has a thick foam sleeve over it (freezing has never been a problem) and securely threads onto the valve stem before I turn on the variable gas valve to inflate the tire. You guys can pump away with a manual pump on a hot day (never any shade when I had a flat). Your challenge with fat tires is many pumps. My challenge was pumping 75-90 psi. Either way, I'll take the CO2 inflator. Works like a dream, is tiny even with cartridges and I don't even have to raise a sweat. It's hard to believe those that don't like them have even used them. They are better than sliced bread.

    Leave a comment:


  • AZguy
    commented on 's reply
    I think that 48V pump makes a lot more sense than a rechargeable one for nearly all electric bike applications, Much more than CO2 since size and weight are less an issue.

    My reality is that I just don't need a pump for >99.9% of riding. I haven't needed to use a pump trailside in years after sealing the tires. So I'll carry one like carrying a spare tire in the car which in all reality likely get used more and I still don't bother to carry a bottle jack and real tire (I do in the 4x4 but that's different). I guess if I were riding more deep in the backcountry, particularly solo, I might go back to carrying a patch kit too I guess - or better yet go fully tubeless and just carry a plug kit.

    Now if I were going to be changing tires pressures a lot, say to run deep sugar sand and then go back to pointy rock territory perhaps an electric would make more sense for my use cases

    In the end I have to ask in these days where sealing a tire is tried, true and pretty darn painless, what is someone doing wrong that they need a pump more than every fifth blue moon?

    YMMV

  • 73Eldo
    commented on 's reply
    Interesting, looks to be about $40.

  • Fred
    commented on 's reply
    Here's one that runs at 48V. May be a bit bulky for some.
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